i think the Survival Instinct rule is great! it just stops a huge, red killing machine... well... killing!

one great thing though, as someone correctly stated in the forums (i can't remember which) you can take out any thing with enough bows... even with volley fire! thus, if i ever come face to face with a dragon, i'll hold ground and volley at it with my 24 rangers of arnor!

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Kill WOTR, yeah?

the rule does balance it out alot as it can already get back it's points cost even with the special rule

on another note voley fire with rangers (s2 bows) won't be too effective against it, 1/72 chance of wounding normally with volley per model and normally 1/18 per model but if it has tough hide worringly that becomes 1/216 per model volleying and 1/54 per model normally.

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generalship is easy just point your troops to the war

Good idea, BrightLance! I forgot about siege weapons. I haven't had any experience with them myself. How accurate are they? Have you had much experience using siege weapons to take down monsters? Remember that you also can't target the dragon if there is a good model in scatter range.

@awcho
For most siege weapons, its a 50% chance of hitting (hits on a 4+) However, the Avenger bolt thrower gets 2xD6 (pick the highest) @str 7 shots per 'bolter if you give it the upgrade. About half will hit, and the average amount of shots fired is usually 4. If you have two, you double your chances of hitting and wounding. If the dragon doesn't take tough hide, you wound on 4. If it does, you wound (i think) on either a 5 or 6, which is a lot better than 6's and 6's.

ABT's only scatter 3 inches, which means chances are you'll hit something.

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OR's secret stealth poster since 9/09.

The problem with artillery arises when you need a 6 to hit on the scatter chart and if models are in the way, you then have to take that test as well even if you do roll a six.

to work out what you need to wound without a wound chart is simple. You do 8 take away the strength (so normally 3 leaves 5) you then add that to the enemy defence (say 5 makes 10) then divide that by 2 (leaves 5) and if you have 0.5 on the end round up. so an uruk against a warrior or rohan with shield would be
8 - 4=4
4+5= 9
9/2= 4.5 round up to 5

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The darkness of Moria you say? Nothing compared to the mess in my bedroom!

Well, I thought the Dragon topic was about done, but the idea of using siege weapons against a Dragon as suggested by BrightLance, has really got me thinking again!:D

I had to read up about siege weapons since I haven’t used them before. As Hithero said, they aren’t very accurate against battlefield targets like Dragons since you have to roll a “6” on the scatter chart even if the siege team has rolled a “hit”. However, as BrightLance noted, the Avenger Bolt Thrower can shoot multiple times per turn and this can be upgraded with swift reload. That could potentially be a lot of Str 7 shots each turn! Even if most of the shots miss, you might be able to get enough hits to drive the Dragon away.

Gundalf7 and Lupino—you both seem to be good at calculating odds for hitting and wounding. Would either of you be able to help figure out the odds for hitting and wounding with Siege Weapons vs. arrows? An Avenger gets 1D6 shots per turn with 4+ to hit for each shot. Each “hit” needs to roll a “6” to be a direct hit on a Dragon. A Str 7 direct hit needs 4+ to wound Def 7 and 5+ to wound Def 9. Unlike the Trebuchet, the Avenger does not automatically kill a battlefield target with multiple wounds if it causes a wound. So it would need to score multiple wounds on a Dragon to drive it away.

Maybe in the future somebody could host a discussion on the Tactics of Siege Weapons. I don’t have any experience with them myself.

@ Beowulf03809,
I know that Curunir has been really busy, so he hasn't had time to transition this discussion to a new topic. If you are ready to host the discussion on Reinforcements, maybe you could start in the next couple of days since the Khazad-Dum discussion seems to be winding down. I think the Reinforcements topic will be very interesting.

well the avenger would have a 1/24 chance of hitting and wounding a normal dragon and if it had tough hide that would become 1/36 each per shot so the avenger will wound the dragon on average normally only wouind the dragon once normally every 6.8 turns with the multiple shots or every 10.2 turns if the dragon has tough hide, so overall the avenger is pretty ineffetive.

the battlecry therefore has a much higher chance of killing it due to the instant kill with a 1/18 chance of hitting and killing a basic dragon and a 1/24 chance if it has tough hide, so it would take 18 turns to kill the dragon nornally and 24 turns if it has tough hide so it looks like siege weaponary would need alot of luck or at the very least a captain to help direct the shot.

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generalship is easy just point your troops to the war

Thanks, Gundalf7! I think a lot of players, including myself, will find this info very useful.

I guess a Good Player would need to field 2 Avengers with upgrades as well as several Citadal Guard Archers like BrightLance suggested earlier to have much of a chance of wounding a Dragon. The good thing about Avengers and Trebuchets is you can give your army additional missle power beyond the 33% bow limit to increase your overall odds of wounding a Dragon with missle weapons.

If a Dragon is facing a Trebuchet and the Dragon can Fly, I would probably try to get into the 18" minimum range of the Trebuchet pretty quickly if the game board isn't huge.

That sounds a bit complicated.
If the Strength is equal or 1 less than the defence you need a 4 to wound; for each 2 pts difference the chance is one higher or lower to wound.

well i use it all the time, it's quicker for me then looking threw the book

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The darkness of Moria you say? Nothing compared to the mess in my bedroom!

Gondorian bolt throwers are fickle things, since they are quite variable in number of shots.

To wound the dragon, assuming you only fire off one shot, you get .0833 hits (1 * (3/6) * (1/6) ). And from that, you get .0416 wounds vs. Def 7 or .0277 wounds vs. Def 9. Best case scenario, assuming you fire off six shots, you get a .5 hits (6 * (3/6) * (1/6) ), so .25 wounds vs. Def 7 and .1666 wounds vs. Def 9. A bit better, but you'll probably need more then one, and the Dragon isn't going to just sit there and let you pepper him with shots.

so basically what everyone is trying to say is DONT TAKE SIEGE EQUIPMENT! (against dragons)

i never take it anyway as it adds a whole new dimension to gaming which frankly bores me. I prefer tactical engagement with flanking and breaking through enemy lines.

To tackle a dragon you need a few things

1. preferably a wizard to drain will and keep him transfixed.

2. a fair amount of troops - the grey company is sort of stuffed when up against a dragon

3. If you have no wizard then a fight value 7 or higher models like Glorfindel or an ent wil help.

4. Archers - i have faced a dragon on numerous occassions and have only inflicted a small amount of wounds (no tough hide occassions) - but it all helps. Also aim for the enemies weakest troops as this will cut their numbers further meaning their breaking point will be ever so nearer

5. play with the terrain - dragons are big and 'hefty' (is that a word ). try to force the enemy to commit to sending the dragon into a gap were some of your force is. Try holding it up by shielding while the rest of the force battles around neutralising minor warriors

6. you could always place the minor troops fighting the dragon and then concentrate your elite into breaking the enemy, though it all depends on the scenario you playing.

7. Keep cavalry away from the beast!

i think thats all.....

.....oh! and DONT use siege machines!

Thanks, Lupino! I'm not very good at figuring out these odds, but I do find them very useful.


Lorderkenbrand, this is an excellent summary of Dragon fighting tactics. I think you've listed all of the important tactics. I agree that cavalry should stay away from a Dragon.


Any chance that you would be able to describe some of your dragon experiences? I would love to hear about them. What abilities did the dragons have? How useful were the abilities? Did the dragons destroy a lot or were they neutralized?

Thank you all for a great discussion, one of the best that we've had in a long time. I'd like to give a big thank you to awcho for doing a great job as host and hope that he'll consider hosting another topic soon.

For now, this is your last chance to put in your two cents about Khazad-Dum, the next topic will start around midnight, GMT.

Your suggestion has been taken up! Cheers!

Back to work...

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Curunír
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The current host is Lupino and the current topic is...
Tactics for Siege Weapons

Topic Description: During the recent Khazad Dum discussion some valid points came up concerning siege weapons and there use in LOTR. The current topic will expand the discussion to include all races and forms of siege weapons in an effort to understand the tactical uses of these weapons of war.

PLEASE NOTE: The topic has been changed at the last minute to adjust for changes in the host schedule. I apologize for the confusion and hope to do better in the future. My thanks to all in involved for their patience and understanding.
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The Continuous Tactical Discussion Thread (CTD) has changed to a rotating host/subject format. New Topics will now be suggested by active members, and the role of Host will be the responsibility of the person in charge of the New Topic. If you are interested in hosting a subject, please sign up by replying in the HOST/TOPIC LIST thread.

Happy discussions!

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Curunír
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It depends on the objective, for example the first scenario in the Shadow and flame suplement (the Eastgate) requires evil to reach a gateway to gain reinforcements and good to get to the gateway to win, the models are split by number and not points so you could either use cavalry to get there fast or really heavy infantry to hold the enemy off and prevent them from complelting there objective.

On the other hand units could have to hold an objective for a number of turns before a relief force turns up, in which case i wold name bowmen and spearmen to hold there ground

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The darkness of Moria you say? Nothing compared to the mess in my bedroom!

Well, just to get the obvious out of the way, Madril would be an excellent choice for this. He's a good Ranger captain in his own right, and his special rule helps to reduce the random chance involved in rolling for your next unit.

PLEASE NOTE: I had forgotten that Beowulf03809 had written me a PM saying that he would be busy during the first part of June, and I hadn't expected the Khazad Dum topic to last as long as it did (which was great) which has pushed his topic back in time.

I'm going to suggest that we table this topic until a later time if he doesn't check in by tomorrow in fairness to him and all involved.

Questions or Comments?

Cheers

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Curunír
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