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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Leinad pretty much summed it up. Practically the only thing Forgotten Kingdoms can do is provide the elements that a force doesn't have, especially magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Well, I do see a lot of questions from people who are aware they are allies and supposed to fill holes in their lists, but are unsure as to how this works in practice so:

"Things I actually like in the Forgotten Kingdoms, not an exhaustive list" (no rating, these are always allies)

Monsters:
1. Basic Ents are good value for their statline and can be very useful run in multiples. Since they only have the 'Hard to Kill' table, they are random and could easily die from just two stray arrows. They could also truck on for multiple turns just soaking up the damage. So I consider them a 'high variance' unit, and would never take less than two. Their biggest plus for me is that they make good ambushers, since they are effective formations that will fit in any wood, no matter how small. Their biggest downside is that all monsters are just victims to proper shooting and spells. Since these are not hero monsters, they are harder to screen properly and harder to work flanks with. Ambush helps, but IME often requires a 'cooperative' opponent.

2. Hero Ents. are more expensive but can move at the double. While perhaps not the most 'efficient' thing pointswise, I find hero monsters fun to use and work well paired up with infantry formations. You want the Hero monsters to be always hitting flanks/rear and you want to keep them screened. Just as with normal Ents, 'Ambush' can be as much a trap as a boon to you, since it is often easy for a non-cooperative opponent to 180deg and nail you with shooting/spells, then go back to fighting the rest of the battle.

3. Hero Eagles. I see these working similarly to hero Ents, without the ambush and much more mobility. For all three of these monster types, ideally you only want to be taking three dice + supports of enemy hits - but even two hits could be enough to kill you...

4. The three Hunters. Not a bad way to get these iconic heroes into a list. I would use these the same as other hero monsters but in particulkar: you have plenty of might so call those heroic actions. I've seen this unit give very good service with good use of Heroic Move, Charge and Fight.

Istari
1. There are better spellcasters in the Elven lists, Thranduil and Galadriel being the standout examples. However, most people find the wandering Istari slightly more plausible. I think that which of the three would be the most useful depends a lot on what you are taking in your list. So discussion of them properly belongs with the respective list discussions.

2. Still: Gandalf's key strength is hero combos, especially Elven ones) where he can keep key abilities on low might heroes charged. He also makes a lot of sense paired up with Gimli. His spells are useful, especially the Dismay list, but not outstanding. In this game, spells quite frequently fail and Dismay is a list that is especcially prone to this given the factors involved. Wraiths make effective use of these spells due to the fact they can cheaply have multiple casters. This is harder to achieve with good casters, though possible. I wouldn't recommend making the Dismay list central to your plans for a 1000pt game but you could use it quite effectively with say Galadriel or Saruman at 2000pts.

3. Saruman (Good Version): Even at 1000pts, the 240 pt Evil version with 'touched by Destiny' to power Epic Ruination is a good deal. I take this to be the baseline comparison for Good Saruman, who is courage 7 (almost never fail those tests!), 3 might, Epic Ruination and channeling, and 3 spell lists. What he lacks is overlord, inspiring leader and touched by destiny. It think is worth considering something like 'Blessing of Galadriel' to give him more might, this will make him 250pts. I don't tend to do this at 1000pts would likely do it at 2000pts. Saruman adds something good lists seriously lack, mobile firepower and something to buff them in combat. 'Shatter Shields' can be highly consequential just on its own, and Saruman can also call Epic Ruination, which means that he actually dishes out quite a lot of damage with his direct damage spells. I see him as the most generally useful of the three.

3.1 For a Gondor Army, Saruman would be the Istari I took first. I generally have enough might already, when using that list, and it is range attacks that I miss. Don't neglect 'shatter shields' though - that one spell can make a big difference. It is quite handy that good Saruman retains the Dismay spell list as well, so the options are there if you need them (say perhaps as another source of 'Sunder Spirit' for Elves, or to disrupt/pin units). For similar reasons, he would go with with Dwarves, and can still potentially supply three more might to Gimli. I think that 'Shatter Shields' alone is enough to commend him to any good list.

4. I think you need to have a very specific plan for Radagast and he fits some lists better than others. I have found him a bit redundant for 1000pt Gondor, but would change my tune if we were going up to 2000 pts (1500?) and Gimli joined him in the allied choices, since he can still gift three might. I see him as having strengths that are more specific in their application than the other two.

4.1 To get is out of the way: Radagast has 'Epic Tranquility' and 'Epic Defense', this means that he is frequently used to create bunker units, particularly with Elves. The theory is that you take a unit with good ranged damage output, via eg Epic Shot and Spells, then make it very hard to charge (only a heroic charge can even get you in, and that is only 50/50) and very hard to damage you even when you do. A particularly extreme version of this at one GW event caused some consternation, but counters exist and we are talking 1500-2000pt level here.

4.2 His other abilities are pretty useful, Birdsight allows him to hit units out of arc with spells, which is very useful in this game. His ability to make a unit Pathfinders and inf charge further is my particular favourite. You can turn flanks with a unit led by this guy (though watch out for ES duels) and set up a lot of near sure-thing charges. Wilderness spells are funny but very good for specific applications vs some of the better units out there: 1. Entangle can hurt Mumaks, 2. Call Winds can force crossbow units to use might to shoot. 3 Nature's Wrath can nail artillery units that were using defensible terrain to achieve 360deg LOS.

Radagast seems best for Rohan (pathfinding Cav that can be rendered all but unchangeable) and Elves (Bunker units). A slight disadvantage he faces is that 'Epic Tranquility' seems to get some people inordinately riled up. I don't see why, since there are a number of non-melee ways to get at him (and there is always heroic charge), but there you are.

YMMV

(edit, forgot the Three Hunters!)

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Why has this stopped?
Can we carry on please? 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:27 am 
Elven Warrior
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I didn't even know one of these existed for WOTR. But ide love to talk about it, even though I haven't played a WOTR game in a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:10 am 
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I think we need to advertise? It to all the other wotr players?
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:49 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Maybe, we could start a thread talking about it in General Discussions? If there is more interest in the game this thread should revive itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:58 pm 
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WhoelsebutHaldir wrote:
Maybe, we could start a thread talking about it in General Discussions? If there is more interest in the game this thread should revive itself.


Done. Good Idea. You can see it here: http://www.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=26051

PM me to edit it if you want to change something in it.
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:15 pm 
Elven Warrior
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K, thanks man.

I thought ide link this thread here, it's about how to use elven armies and has some good links in it.

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=23547

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:01 am 
Elven Warrior
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What is everyone's favorite unit/hero to do damage against enemy units?

As an elven player, I tend to be hero oriented and so I usually use my heroes to duel enemy ones and (hopefully) take out a handful of extra soldiers. I also have tinkered with battle cry trebuchets and avenger bolt throwers, but they can be inconsistent.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Hi WhoelsebutHaldir,
Everyone at the club I goto say Elf armies are no good, to weak for the points, obviously you get on well with them.
Can you recommend a 1200 point list, it must have banners, musicians, spell casters, etc, as we play a full themed army version.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:36 am 
Elven Warrior
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Galadriel
Thranduil
The Twins
Galadhrim regiment, 4 companies; shields/banner (Elrohir)
Galadhrim regiment, 4 companies; shields/banner (Galadriel and Elladan)
Galadhrim Archer regiment, 2 companies
Galadhrim Archer regiment, 2 companies
Wood elf Warband, 4 companies (Thranduil)

This is to give you the maximum amount of formations possible to help counter you enemies. Normally I would have put Thranduil with the Galadhrim, but they need a hero with epic defence hence the change. The idea is that the Two Galadhrim formations fight the main enemy ones while the wood elves try to get a flanking engagement and the archers support. Galadriel will keep restocking the twins might epic renewal, so you can call plenty of heroic duels and defences with them. She will also lend decent defensive/augmentive magic to your formations, while Thranduil can do damage with his magic and epic shot. He might even be able to crush an enemy formation with epic strike.
This is not the best army that is possible, but I think it is pretty good. However take that with a grain of salt because I usually play 2000pt games, so this is a little out of my expertise.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:35 am 
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Thanks WhoelsebutHaldir, I have printed this out for future use. Can you tell me your 2,000 point army please?

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:18 am 
Elven Warrior
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I don't have an army list for fighting any enemy, most of them are just for fighting isengard, however I can come up with one tomorrow. However, I think the most competitive army one can have with eleves is a bunker unit along these lines;
I call it, bring on the cheese...

Elrond (leader)
High elf archer regiment x6 companies
Galadriel
Thranduil
Legolas
Haldir
Cirdan

Allies:
Gandalf
Radagast
Saruman
Aragorn
Floi stonehand

The idea is that the unit deals out massive amounts of damage because of magic/abilities/and arrows, while being unchargable/high defence(epic defence)/ and just strait up annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:39 pm 
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WhoelsebutHaldir wrote:
What is everyone's favorite unit/hero to do damage against enemy units?



Well if you ask me it's just any hero with epic rampage! Most of the time my opponent uses it to smash my toughest unit when he puts dain in a khazad guard formation... :o

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Favourite unit/ hero?

Betrayer
Amdur
Shaman
9 Companies Moria Goblins
Morgul Blades

Re-rolling all failed to wound - Betrayer
Wounding on a 4+ - Morgul Blades
Extra dice for every hit due to epic rampage (which can be re-rolled) - Amdur
Can shoot fire, shatter shields - Shaman

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:58 pm 
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Glorfindel riding through a formation and then charging it in the rear.
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:40 pm 
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Thanks for the list WhoelsebutHaldir, wow hero heavy! Has given me food for thought about starting an Elven army

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:46 am 
Elven Warrior
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The above list is exactly 2000pts, for your 1200pt type just cut Haldir,Cirdan,Elrond,Saruman,Floi, and Aragorn, and then add a captain to the main formation or a 50pt fortune.

A more traditional 2000pt army would be like this...

Galadriel
Thranduil
Legolas
Haldir
Twins

Galadhrim regiment; shields x6 companies (Legolas)
Galadhrim regiment; shields x6 companies (Galadriel,Elladan)
High elf cohort; x4 companies (Thranduil)
Galadhrim archer regiment; x3 companies (Haldir can jump between these two formations)
Galadhrim archer regiment; x3 companies
Galadhrim knight regiment; x4 companies (Elrohir)

And an extra 15 pts for a hornblower somewhere or some hobbit militia or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:42 am 
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Noticed there wasn't much reviewing for the elves, and as I play them I shall quickly critique the main pointy ear units.

Galadhrim regiment
Most of an elf army will probably be these, and they're actually pretty good. Always take shields though, or they aren't. I always wonder what those skirt things are actually made of that they only get defence 4, but i suppose they do have helmets with holes in them. If they get the full advantages from terror, glaives and high fv, they will get tons of attacks, which they really need because strength 3 is nothing special. They also have good courage and they're fast. main downsides are defence, especially against s4 opponents, (but you can boost this with epic defence) and high points cost, but overall a fairly solid unit.

Galadhrim archers
Although they have impressive stats and longbows, high points means you won't get as many archers to start with so really elves don't have much of a shooting advantage. Again defence lets them down, so its best to avoid combat unless you're sure you can win. Good for taking down cavalry and monsters who will do real damage to elf combat units before they can attack.

Wood elves
These guys are brilliant archers, and enchanted cloaks means they are safe from a distance. Although they have throwing weapons and high fv and stuff, defence really matters in wotr and they simply don't have it. Bring them along without bows as a combat unit and they'll just die. Even with epic defence they are still really weak, so don't take too many. As a side note they are also quite badly sculpted, although thankfully the rules do not reflect this.

High elf regiment
Insane fv, but 55 points is a heck of a lot for strength 3 and defence 5. These guys will cut low defence units to shreds, only problem being they'll most likely also die in the process. They may have looked badass in the movie, but generally this is a poor unit, really needing a defence boost to be taken seriously. I would always take galadhrim with shields over them.

High elf archers
great archers, but really expensive. For 5 points more they are a better way to spend points than the high elf regiment, but pricey nonetheless. Overall not bad, but need to be used carefully.

Sentinels
The same as wood elves, but with enrapturing song. Their own defence is so rubbish that strength 1 opponents won't make much difference, but if a more combat geared unit is with them it can compensate for low armour. Quite useful if you have them.

Galadhrim knights
Low defence, but some of the best cavalry in the game. They can move wherever they want really quick because of pathfinders and 12 movement, and also randomly have 4 attacks. thats 16 per company if the enemy fails the terror test. If they have a high fv epic defence hero like celeborn they are even better. nice unit.

High elf cohort
The best combat unit in the list, mostly due to defence 7. Average strength but besides that there are no weak points to the cohort. The high elf commander is by by the best captain in the game, with 3 might and a crazy fv. Makes me laugh that a hobbit militia leader costs the same. I would always take them.

Galadhrim guards
The best anti warg rider unit there is. Not bad but as usual defence lets them down and they are 70 points. If you have them then use them because they look cool and probably cost you lots of money to buy.

Overall, elves have some killer units, but only if they are used correctly. The biggest issue is all round crappy defence, but you can make up for it with heroes and special rules/combos. The terror rule is great but a bit hit and miss as you can't rely on enemy units failing courage tests all the time. They do really need heroes. Low points cost units like morannon orcs with good strength and defence are probably the best thing to beat them with. They are fun to use, but difficult. A 3 or 3.5 maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions: WotR Codex
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:53 am 
Elven Warrior
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I agree with every point made. Elves really need heroes to be effective, this can be seen with the epic actions that elven heroes have. There is a reason that elves have the most heroes with epic defence than any other army.

Guardians of Caras Galadhon are an amazing unit to use, if not slightly overcosted. They are the only elven unit with strength 4 and they have orcbane! And as said above they can rip apart warg riders as if they are nothing.

The best heroes for elves would have to be Galadriel, Thranduil and the twins (if coupled with Galadriel). The other heroes are good, but I would usually take these ones first before the others.

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