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 Post subject: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:57 am 
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After taking a glance at my WW2 armies, I realised that I have painted all of their skin lightly coloured, and I think it would be more fair and historically accurate to give my armies a bit of ethnic diversity. So I want to find the % of Black soldiers who fought for the different armies in WW2 so I can paint my armies in that proportion.

It was very easy finding the % of African-American soldiers, but not for the others. So I was wondering if anyone knew of some statistics for the % of Black British Soldiers (including colonial troops). Also, did the Japanese, Germans, and Soviets ever have a substantial Black population amongst their ranks? (when I say substantial, I mean at least above 1%).

Thanks everyone!
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:22 am 
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Australia would of had Aboriginals (I am pretty sure they had an entire division or something) and what I found really interesting was that the Germans had the highest number of Black Soldiers out of the european nations. I think it just seems strange that the Arian Nazi's had Black Soldiers who actually had the best rights across at the world at the time (In the American army they still couldn't eat at the same table or sleep in the same tents but in the German Army everyone had equal rights). Theres a website that says a few countries of the major countries numbers of different ethnicities I had a quick search and couldn't find it but it is out there somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:39 am 
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The Kiwi had the Maori.

All the natons that fought in WW1 & WW2 had "black" soldiers, male and female. They drew them from mainly their "colonies."

Germans had a very large number from Africa. They mainly fought in Africa and saw little to no action outside the continent. There is a book that stated that there were units made up of POW's that switched sides to fight against their homeland and for Germany. Most, when returned home, where executed for treason.

If you mean did any division/regiment/etc made up of almost entirely of black soldiers fight for the Axis on the Europian theater...No.

The French had the Sengalese and the Goumier (Moroccans), the British had the Carribean, the Nepalians, the Moari, Africans, Burmians, and Indians. Don't forget that the USA had a unit of Japanese Americans and the equally famous Buffalo Soldiers.

Remember that Italy had the Ethopians.

But again, most of these forces saw little to no action outside their native countries..for the Axis. The Allies on the other hand is another story.

I know that doesn't answer your question directly about a percentage, but hopefully it sheds some light where you can further your research.
-Scar

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:51 am 
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Thanks everyone for the responses. I intend for my WW2 collection to represent the entire world war, not just Europe which is the reason why I want to reflect these demographics accurately. These are some statistics I have found on the British Empire and the USA:

According to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical ... .932010.29

African Americans made up 9.8% of the US population. Since all men were conscripted would it be accurate to paint 10% of my US troops black?

According to this:
http://www.academia.edu/444982/The_Brit ... o_lecture_

The British Empire had 8,252,000 soldiers. India + West Africa + East Africa = 2,165,000 which is 26%. Would this be accurate? I understand that Africa had white people and that the Dominions had blacks/aborigines. But I can't investigate every single case accurately, so some simplification is inevitable, but I still want it to be somewhat precise.

I had no idea about Blacks in the German and Japanese army. Do you have any sources on this topic? I've done some extensive googling but I haven't found anything that suggests that they represented more than 1% of the army. What about the Soviets?

An additional question, I know the US army was segregated until 1948, but I recall that some units were integrated at certain times in battles (such as the Battle of the Bulge) due to white men shortages. How accurate is this?
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:04 am 
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Ugh!!! I have tried posting a reply 3x's! Each time I hit submit I get taken to the login screen and the content is gone!

To be brief. During WW2 almost all the nations involved had rampant segregation. Every nation Axis/Allied had "minority" units. Sure there were the random individual that got intergrated, but was rare. There was a black soldier that rose to be a Lt., in the German army. This before Hiltler went bat-guano crazy.

The nazis did have large minority units, one was the Free Arab Legion made of North African/Iraqi ethnicity that fought the Allies during the Allied Operation Torch. Though they never left Africa. Fascist Italy had the Samolians.

Japan and the USSR did not have minority units that I can recall.

The only real exception are the French. Though even then it was more mixing of units as opposed to mixing of individuals. Except the FFL, which btw did the 1st ever battlefield recruitment/promotion of a female...gotta love he FFL.

The USA had segragrated units across the board, even the USMC. These units rarely fought alongside with their "white" brothers-in-arms. Only in major engagements did they do so, even then they were more than likely coupled with French troops. Was not till ...1949... That Truman passed a law forcing intergration of the armed forces.

I have painted all black units for most games I play. I get tired of seeing only fair skinned models, as if that is the only representation people can envision. I even have captains and troopers of WoMT painted in a various of dark skintones.

-Scar

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Last edited by ScarpeIron on Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:26 am 
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Partially correct about the Battle of the Bulge. There were black soldiers that fought directly in the Ardenns Forest, though they were their own units. There was no "mixed" units. There were tank destroyers, artillery, and a truck company that were all black units. Now, in the thick of fighting 2K+ black soldiers did fight as infantry alongside white soldiers, BUT they were support services...cooks, stewards, orderlies, engineers, etc.; again not initially integrated into the 4 infantry division fighting in this battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:42 am 
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You only need to look at some of the models available to realise that there was more diversity than Hollywood and popular television or conventional teaching of history would lead one to believe.
For example;
http://store.warlordgames.com/collectio ... i-infantry
http://store.warlordgames.com/collectio ... -us-troops
And there are a few surprises out there too: Indians serving with the Germans for example -
http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=10440
Were you aware that Brazilians fought in the Italian campaign? It's all out there, all you need to do is more research.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:08 pm 
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The Perry Bros do British Sikhs,

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/produc ... ts_id=2881

An interesting article about German WW2 Sikhs on the Warlord site

http://www.warlordgames.com/dave-lawren ... man-sikhs/

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:19 am 
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These are all very fascinating replies. I think I have come to the conclusion that I will paint 7% of my US troops and 26% of my British troops dark skinned. Although there are some very interesting stories that have been presented to me about African/Indian troops in the German army, these are all very small cases (less than 1%) and since I only own about 70 models for each army, I will not be representing dark skinned troops in the German, Japanese, and Soviet army.

I'm also thinking about whether or not I should segregate my troops for historical accuracy. I'm not sure if I want to do this as, due to the way my WW2 rules are, squads are not permanent in a game, and they can shift, so things are bound to desegregate anyways.

Thanks so much for the replies everyone!
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:44 am 
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one famous US Army (segregated) unit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/761st_Tank_Battalion_%28United_States%29

I read their story years ago, quite interesting.

for a whole division the 92nd US Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/92nd_Infantry_Division_%28United_States%29

there is a much richer backstory if you go beyond Wikipedia
In my studies I know there were African American units that served in the Pacific and of course the famous Army Air Corps units
on a side note the 442nd RCT was an all Japanese American unit (as well as the remaining elements of a Hawaii National Guard unit. Another great backstory.
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:42 am 
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Sticky Fingersss wrote:
After taking a glance at my WW2 armies, I realised that I have painted all of their skin lightly coloured, and I think it would be more fair and historically accurate to give my armies a bit of ethnic diversity. So I want to find the % of Black soldiers who fought for the different armies in WW2 so I can paint my armies in that proportion.

It was very easy finding the % of African-American soldiers, but not for the others. So I was wondering if anyone knew of some statistics for the % of Black British Soldiers (including colonial troops). Also, did the Japanese, Germans, and Soviets ever have a substantial Black population amongst their ranks? (when I say substantial, I mean at least above 1%).

Thanks everyone!


Did you ever think about Japanese or Native American US troops? They did awesome things and the one Japanese unit..I forget the number, was the most highly decorated. Just interesting to consider unless you were looking for only black soldiers. The Japanese American unit was something really cool to learn about...they were vicious.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:20 pm 
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I am aware of the very interesting Japanese-American/Native-American units, however I did not incorporate them into my army because they made up less than 1% of the US army.
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Yeah but if youre going for realism they black, Japanese, and Native units often were by themselves and did not integrate into the forces.....so having like 3 or 4 black soldiers in a unit of guys wouldnt be accurate at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:00 pm 
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I agree, however I am not going for 100% realism. I just want to partially reflect some of the demographics of WW2. During some campaigns where chaos ensued (like the Battle of the Bulge or the retreat through Burma) Black and White Americans often fought side by side since their units were scattered all over the place and the same went with the British/Indian troops.
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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:15 am 
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Coming late to this party, sorry.

Through the government-sanctioned segregation of the time, African Americans were relegated to non-combat roles, such as driving trucks and clearing minefields. But of course they were sometimes caught up in the fighting as things moved rapidly and they came close to enemy forces. Thankfully we live in more enlightened times and that level of racism is a thing of the past.

So it would be highly unusual to find an American combat squad with a mix of black and white troops. But it did happen in reality and so it's not unreasonable to depict them.

And even the Nazis, despite their systemic racial intolerance, used local troops in North Africa.

It's a fascinating topic and, to our more tolerant minds, an unpleasant and unjust one.

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 Post subject: Re: Black Soldiers in WW2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:08 pm 
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Dropping late in as well..

At the end of 1944 the US Army was critical short of infantry (since only a very small part of the division did all the fighting) and a call came out for volunteers. Lots of black soldiers volunteered because most of them were in support units and wanted to fight. Some were even from TD units or armoured units.

After training, these replacement infantry were incorporated in white units were they were fighting in their own platoons.
Fighting at platoon level they did just as well as the white units, on company level they were struggling tho. After a while the black soldiers were eating and relaxing with the white troops because they earned their place among them.

Like said before, the 442nd IR or Nisei is as well a very interesting unit. It was the most decorated one in the US Army while their families were in the camps in the States.
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