Actual tactics would really be specific for the Spell User you select. Here are my thoughts on one of my favorite Wizards: Saruman of the White Hand, Lord of Isengard, ruler of all Middle-Earth (ok, so I have high-hopes for my Isengard forces).

I have only played him a couple times due to his cost and the cost of the rest of his army, but found him effective. I treat him very similar to an archer in that you want to keep him protected behind your lines but close enough to threaten the enemy as well as keeping close to the heart of action to really take advantage of his enhanced Stand Fast capability. I found that keeping him close to a core of killing power is very important since you want to be able to draw your selected target to its doom and having such a force nearby limits the enthusiasm of your enemy trying to take Saruman out by charging him..

Another thing I did was to "assign" three UH w/ Shields as "bodyguard" to him. These were kept in front of him at all times and ensured that there was always an in-the-way role needed should someone try taking a shot at him. When I faced a force that included Legolas I actually kept shifting the bodyguards so that they were two-deep between Saruman and Leggy. In the future I will also keep one Pikeman assigned to remain near Saruman to provide support should he get into combat eventually. Like most Wizards he is a capable fighter if it gets that close, but with only 1 Attack he can be brought down fast if out numbered (hence the Pike). There is NO reason not to leverage this as well if the situation presents itself. If you get close enough in combat you can hook him up with some UH Warriors / Bserkers and use him for Heroic Combat or Heroic Moves. This is more "last ditch" but it is still an option. Just remember to cast your spell before charging with him.

I cast Terrifying Aura immediately (no sense wasting time) and advanced him with the rest of my force, but behind the main lines. As soon as you start to get in range begin to leverage his cheap and effective Immobilize and Command spells to mess up the enemy lines and take out Elites. Heroes and other models with Will can be ignored initially in my opinion. They just slow down the process if they manage to resist and It will be easier to take them out anyway when you reduce the number of support models around them. Getting rid of any model with Bodyguard is good because they have a "free" charge against terrifying oponents and don't worry about courage tests. They are also usually better fighters. Calvary can also be easily disrupted with these spells.

His Palantir-given ability to have one guaranteed Priority win is terrific but hard to time right. Sometimes you just have those turns that you KNOW you want or need priority and that's great. Don't waste this early on but at the same time it doesn't help to reach the end of the game and not have used this. If you're against some mounted forces then it's easier to determine since you often have those turns that if you have Priority you can engage a lot of ponies and prevent any charges. Likewise if you're trying to get to a scenario objective or a key piece of terrain (narrow pass, high ground, woods, etc.) before your enemey then it is justified.

Sorcerous Blast is very good but expensive. I learned the hard way that if you're going to try this spell you should invest two dice. Line up a few enemy models, preferably with a Hero in there, and roll away. Boost with Might if needed, but hopefully 2 dice will get you there. When the enemy are down, charge forward (maybe use the free Priority here as needed) and kill anyone that survived the blast.

As a final note, Saruman the White should probably be played in much the same way (minus the Palantir) but I have not yet used him.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Congratulations in the 500th post on the topic, Beowulf

Anyway, down to business.

Personally, I find Saruman's sorcerous blast deadly- particularly because my opponent has an unnerving ability to roll 5s every time he casts the spell- and I generally play with ordered formations, which it decimates.

All of his powers combined lead me to believe he should cost another 20 points or so, as should Grima for the same reasons.

_________________
Please visit my gallery
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/album_ ... er_id=2878

I always have high hopes for my minions!

That was great summary Beowulf, very well done and I couldn't have done better myself! Cheers

_________________
Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

Excelllent summary Beowulf - Saruman is IMO the best spellcaster in the game because of his relitively fair points and usefulness in a force that would otherwise have no heroes of similar ability. He has a wide array of useful spells, and as Jack said, I love to rip through his ordered lines of elven troops - and Jack I don't 'always' get the 5s, but I admit that last game I was quite lucky. Anyway, one advantage I have with my Saruman is I have mounted him on horseback so he can fire off spells without the risk of a melee combat next turn. After all it is listed in his profile that he can have a horse, so I thought why not!? Next up will be Grima

_________________
Brush licking is for better painters.

Having just used Radagast the Brown in my Games Day army, stay tuned for my tactics when including him in the force.

JRB

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Backlog Status -- #################### -- 267/608 (43.9%)
Currently: Army of the Dead

Battle Companies

I can have a horse? I didn't know that. That would make him much more mobile (and useful in my mind) on the field.

BTW, joe I thought you're Battle report showed some good tactical uses for Saruman, thanks for posting that.

Yes, please do. Just make it quick, this topic will self destruct on May 7th to make way for Dwarves!

Back to work...

_________________
Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

Great discussion on Saruman!

SARUMAN THE WHITE (the relatively good Saruman) is also a very effective wizard. For the same points as Radagast and 20 pts less than evil Saruman or Gandalf the Grey, you get the ability to cast Immobilize and Command at a range of 18" and the ability to cast Sorcerous Blast on a 4+.

I think he is the only spell caster except for Sauron that has this 18" range. Therefore, he can target enemy spell casters while he is out of their range. He can start disrupting advancing troops about 1 turn earlier than other spell caster. And it gives Saruman more of a safety cushion from being charged by cavalry.

The extra range is very useful against the Nazgul since the Nazgul will often attempt to drain a spell caster's Will once they are within the critical 12" range. You can use Command to move them away or out into the open. Or you can just Immobilize them to prevent them from casting spells. The Nazgul will have to succumb to the spell or waste precious Will resisting the spell.

Since the Nazgul often like to lurk behind their troops, I've also used Command to force them into an open area where my troops can trap them. Combat is usually the last place a Nazgul wants to be since they aren't very good fighters, they lose 1 Will, and they can't cast their spells.

As mentioned before, Sorcerous Blast is a great spell for disrupting formations of troops. Just the threat of it can make your opponent uncertain how to advance especially if they have a pike or spear formation. Being able to cast it on a 4+ means Saruman can cast the spell fairly consistently with only 2 Will. So he can cast it more frequently than evil Saruman or Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the White can also cast it on a 4+, but he is generally too expensive.

In one battle, I led an army of Easterlings against a White Council/Mirkwood Army led by Saruman the White. I had a hard time using my pike block against him. Just knowing that he could go "Easterling Bowling" forced me to spread out and reduce the effectiveness of my pikes.

Saruman the White also has a great 12" Stand Fast. Even though he doesn't have the Palantir, I think that he is a great offensive wizard overall. One of his few limitations is that he does not fit well with a lot of armies thematically.

[Joe checks FoTN]
Wow! I had no idea that the 'Good' Saruman cast sorcerous blast on a 4+ and that he had an 18" range with some of his spells. Good info, and some good examples of his use. Thanks

@Curunir - I've had him in my gallery for ages!
Anyway, I expect that GW will release a Saruman ft. and mounted and do the same for Grima - after all, their profiles list horses as options (well at least in the One Rulebook).

On horseback, Saruman is incredibly useful - if you use the terrain effectively, then he can avoid being shot at by bows and really wreck havoc once the two forces meet. His manouvreabiliy is well worth the 10 points for several reasons:
- He can avoid being singled out by enemy cavalry, this means that you can move Saruman away from the defense of your army and launch a few pre-emptive spells at your enemy without them being able to do anything about it!
- Saruman now has the ability to get to where he's needed. All to often I've found myself needing Saruman at another part of the battlefield yet by the time he arrived nothing would be left. Now it takes very little time to traverse the battlefield.
- Saruman's standfast of 12" is excellent on foot, but on horseback I can now get to where my main army is if I am broken but without taking 5 turns (and by this time your amry has been routed). From my own experience, I have never taken Saruman into my frontline troops so being able to aid in this way is very helpful.
- A deterrent - If you need to stop a few infantry from reaching your crossbowmen or your ballista for example, then Saruman's horse allows him to stop small groups from advancing at your rear. A few sorcerous blasts is usually enough to make them run away in terror.
- He looks damn cool! I've always thought of Saruman as having a commanding position above his troops - now he has that position, especially if you use ebob's heroic horse.

Hopefully I've persuaded you to convert a Saruman!
Joe

_________________
Brush licking is for better painters.

Great synopsis awcho, and now that I think about it Saruman the White would be a really great addition to an Army, one that lacks any significant Magic-Users. I do not have my LoME in front of me, can someone please give a run down of which Armies Saruman the White can ally with?

Does Saruman the White have a mounted option as well... could be deadly!

Cheers

_________________
Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

Unfortunately, Saruman the White doesn't have the option for horse (I checked both LoME and FoTN). I don't quite understand the reasoning behind his points however - he is 20 less points than evil Saruman and yet his spells are cast more easily. The only thing he lacks is the Palantir which to be honest is not really that fantastic.

He (and 'The Wizards') can ally with what looks to me like every Good army, although I think you need to use some common sense here - it says that you can ally him with the Fellowship and the Dead of Dunharrow but I think in these instances it probably refers to Gandalf.

_________________
Brush licking is for better painters.

Hello everyone,

Today (Monday, May 7th) will be the final day for this topic. Any last minute comments or a summary of the material would be welcomed.

Thanks for another great round of discussions and stay tuned for the next topic which will be posted around midnight GMT.

Cheers

_________________
Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

I checked in my rule book (the bigger and blue one that cost a lot), and he has the option for horse.

We have that rulebook too- the trouble is, FoTN is more recent and so its rules take precedence.

_________________
Please visit my gallery
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/album_ ... er_id=2878

The OR rulebook is for the Evil version, FotN sourcebook has the Good version, which can't take a horse.

as far as i know saruman could take a horse in most of the books

sadly I have been busy all weekend and have not had time to read most of these very long and imformative posts so I will try my best

_________________
From The Lowest Dungen To The Highist Peak I Fought Him The Fell Balrog Of Morgoth

Gandalf,The Two Towers

[center][/center]
[h2][/h2]
The current host is awcho and the current topic is...
Topics related to the new Khazad-Dûm Sourcebook

Topic Description: The newest LOTR SBG Sourcebook has a wealth of new Good and Evil Heroes and Warrior profiles which will change the way that these forces will fight in the future. What are the new tactical advantages to be gained? This discussion will be seperated into three parts...
[split][col][/col][col][/col][col]The Dwarves A look at the newest additions to the Dwarvish legions, such as the Vault Wardens, Ballista and Rangers. Iron Guard or Khazâd Guard, how do they compare to other dwarves? How will these new troops influence game play?[/col][/split]
[split][col]The Goblins Not much new here for Gobbos but the new Prowlers look to be a sneaky addition. Bat Swarms, Wild Wargs and Spiders mean lots of speed for the various Armies but how to use them for the best tactical advantage?[/col][col][/col][/split]
[split][col][/col][col]

The Dragon!!!
Big, bad and dangerous. Nuff said [/col][/split]

[h2][/h2]
The Continuous Tactical Discussion Thread (CTD) has changed to a rotating host/subject format. New Topics will now be suggested by active members, and the role of Host will be the responsibility of the person in charge of the New Topic. If you are interested in hosting a subject, please sign up by replying in the HOST/TOPIC LIST thread.

Happy discussions!

_________________
Curunír
Please visit My Gallery

Thanks Mathusala0 for hosting the discussion on Spell Casters! Lots of good comments were brought up all around.

As Curunir said, I'll be hosting the discussion on KHAZAD-DUM. (In fact I just picked up my copy today along with Curunir).

Since the Khazad-Dum Supplement covers several topics, I would like to keep it organized by dividing it into three sections. For the first couple of weeks the discussion should be focused on the Dwarves. When that dies down, the discussion will switch to the Goblins. After that, the discussion will switch to the Dragon--a subject worthy of being discussed by itself.

So first the Dwarves: they have new heroes, new rangers, new elites, and new siege equipment. How will these affect tactics?

Even if you don't like dwarves, I would encourage your participation. You could talk about their "shortcomings" or how to get a "head up" on them. Ahem, I mean you could talk about their disadvantages or about the tactics you would use to defeat them.

So let's hear what you think of the new Dwarves...do they fall short of your expectations? or will they take the Dwarves to new heights?

The new dwarves are much more fun to play, not to mention user-friendly now that 3 dwarves aren't $12. The creation of the plastic ones opened up a whole new window for a 'pure' dwarf force, as before having a 1k point army required a second job.

Pros:
Strong Characters, not to mention long lasting ones.
Relatively cheap dwarf warriors (1/3 of which are def. 7)
High Courage
Allies (Gondor, Elves, etc.)
Powerful Elites
Str. 3 bows
Nifty new Siege engine.

Cons:
5" movement
18" bow range
Expensive elites and heroes
No spears (other than VWT)
Very low fate across the board (all of the dwarf characters seem to die...)
No cav.


Strengths:
Static defense
Slow, but almost immovable
High Courage

Weaknesses:
Lots and lots of bows
anything faster than 6"
Magic powers
being outnumbered
Lances
Horses

More later, but for now I gotta go to bed...

_________________
OR's secret stealth poster since 9/09.

I also think that the new dwarves make the dwarves more interesting. Now there is a lot more variety to choose from so that different dwarven armies won't be so similar.

This also opens some new tactical possibilities. The Iron Guard I think are an interesting addition. With two attacks and throwing weapons they make good shock / assault troops. Since dwarves don't have normal spear support to be able to roll a 2nd dice in most combats with dwarf warriors and Khazad Guard, the Dwarves lose some of their advantage of having a higher FV when fighting troops supported with spears. So the IG's 2 attacks helps make up for this.

Their biggest problem of course is their cost. You could almost have 2 regular dwarf warriors or rangers for the cost of one IG. So if you want to use a lot of IG, you have to sacrafice a lot in numbers. I think finding the right balance will be the key.

So how to use them in an army?

One way would be to keep the IG on the flanks of your shield wielding warriors. Once your shield warriors are engaged, use the IG to charge the flanks. Their throwing weapons are good offensive weapons and would probably be more effective against the less armored spear wielders in the back of the enemy's formation. If they can engage the spears in the back, the IG will have the advantage with their 2 attacks.

Another way would be to make a wall of them in the center of your force or intersperse a few of them in your shield warriors and go toe to toe with the enemy's spear-supported infantry. Meanwhile try to get the rest of your warriors or rangers to wrap around their flanks since you don't have spear wielders behind your front line. The problem with this is you have to use expensive troops to hold the line and you may have less opportunities to use their throwing weapons.

However, this would probably be a good setup if the scenario requires your army to break through the enemy army. If that's the case, then placing a strong hero in the center to lead the spearhead should help even more. In addition, this setup might be good if the enemy has a lot of cavalry to try to flank your dwarves. You can use your shield warriors to hold the flanks.

Any thoughts on the IG?

From my recent (victorious might I add) experience of Dwarves, they are a great force to game with. These are some of the troop types I used:

Dwarf warriors
Most likely to be the core of your force - they come in 3 flavours, shielded, 2H weapons, and bowmen. Your shielded warriors should be placed as frontline troops when deploying with your 2H weapons behind. This means that for the first few turns of movement, your forces will be able to withstand arrows with a lot more ease.

Once you engage your thin formation tries to counter the dwarves lack of numbers with a very thin line in the hope that your defence 7 will be able to hold for a while, whilst you envellop the enemy around the flanks. and if they are using pikes or spears, you can quite easily win with this tactic if you maintain decent dice rolls and win as many fights as possible (a banner would be a good idea) If a few D7 dwarves are killed, then the 2H dwarves from behind can take their place. This tactic should normally used with a force in reserve, in case the battle goes wrong.

If you are using a small battlefield, then dwarf bowmen are excellent. However, if not then it is probably better to invest in some rangers with a 24" range and 3+ shoot value.

Iron guard
As has already been mentioned, IG are excellent shock troops, who come with throwing axes as standard and 2 attacks. It is worth having a captain nearby so that you can call a heroic charge if you want the upper hand.

Vault WardensShould be used to guard a specific area or pass. They are too many points to be used in your frontline, so if you do want to use them offensively, you can place them right in the centre of your formation to find a eway through, or at the flank so that you can push ahead. Be warned however, that those D9 shields are not invincible - I found that out the hard way after S2 bowfire managed to destroy one.

_________________
Brush licking is for better painters.