Ah... Okay... I can't wait till christmas and getting the new rulebook...

I keep bugging parents to let me have it earlier... but no success

And how much have they changed? surely their fight value is still superior to the evil forces, and they can still have shields, which makes my 'pros' still partially valid...

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How could they have changed elves!! :evil: They were perfect as it was.

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surrender to the strawberry ice-cream

I agree. In the "older" rules for High Elves, I honestly didn't find that much to justify the high cost to them. How could GW be so dumb as to make them weaker? :evil:

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Could it be that someone of influence within GW does not like High Elves/all Elves? They were always pricey pointswise and had fewer options than most armies but it looks like they are being put beyond any practical use, which is a real annoyance. I have no objection to being outnumbered but having that and some imbalanced costings for items of equipment is pushing matters too far.

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Elves have now been dropped to 7 points base value with no equipment - a points drop; at the loss of some equipment. They have D3 basic...

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Thror Clawhammer
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OK, change of topic to... Morannon Orcs These Orcs are in some situations a viable alternative to Uruk-hai, at a lower points cost for the loss of only a few characteristics. However, many people (such as myself) do not use Morannon Orcs as we believe that once again their power is not great enough to balance against shock troops such as SKoDA.

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Thror Clawhammer
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Tactically I do not see any real advantage to having them over the similar characteristics of the uruks or the greater numbers of the basic orcs. I suppose having some adds a variation that might just swing a round in your favour.
From a purely modelling standpoint, it's nice to have a few 'different' orc models available, though I would like more of the 'spikey' variety we saw in the film.

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New topic is Spearmen. Though they give an advantage, spearmen, particularly for the evil side, can be a bit of compromise - their lower Defence makes them vulnerable for the kill...

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Thror Clawhammer
Is it sad that I spent hours trying to think of a signature?

Point of order Mr Clawhammer:

The definition of 'spearmen' is vague and therefore the value of discussion is dimished. Are we limiting this to spears, or including throwing spears, pikes etc? Are we limiting this to troops on foot, or including mounted riders and those carried in howdahs? Do we bring in the fact that many spear equipped troops carry a shield to compensate for the lower defence value?

And, for the politically-correct posse, maybe taking Eowyn as as exemplar, it is not only men or those given male status that carry spears.

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Strangely, all my Avatars have a certain theme..

Spearmen don't always have lower defence, as you can equip them with shields, eliminating the need for swordsmen

the higher points cost does however have the draw back of lesser numbers

And the ability to support you friends and give an extra attack can never be underestimated




Unless the rules have changed on me again...

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I know you said you wouldn't tolerate excuses, but I have a really good one

Sorry I missed the last topic! I've been hibernating lol...

Anyway, Mr Dorthonion, because I know what Thror is talking about here, I will go straight to talking about spearmen.

With Orcs, Spearmen can really be useful, especially since the Orcs' shoddy Defence means that if they lose combat, they wil probably die So if you support you Shield-Armed Orcs with a line of spear-Orcs, then you will have a greater chance of winning the combat. For Orcs, spears can be invaluable, but I'm not so sure about Minas Tirith spearmen and such. Because they have shields on the models, I am not so sure about their supportive abilities being able to balance this. 1 point more may not seem to be that much, but it can really make the difference.

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"You draw far too much attention to yourself, Mr. Baggins!"

And young Master Telcontar never mentioned the shieldmaiden of Rohan.

Spears are like any of the other weapons options for any race; we are trading off offensive and defensive capabilities against points cost with the objective of having a force that can kill the enemy faster than they can kill us.

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Spearmen (in this case Rohirrim) are handy because:

1. They can fight through a friendly model
2. The spear can be used as a hand weapon or as a missile (no,not the one that goes boom )

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Thror is a Master too, Dorthonion.

What are you talking about? What does Eowyn have to do with anything!

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Unless the rule book (the new one which I do no have) has changed then Rohirrim & Warriors of Rohan cannot use Spears to help in combat. They are only ever armed with throwing spears which cannot be used to fight through a freindly model.

Spears can be invaluable to any warrior. The ability to roll more dice in combat, than your enemy is a sure fire way to win more fights.

The rule is still same. Throwing spears can not be used to support friendly models.

My view is that the main advantage of spears is the ability to concentrate your attacks on a smaller area and make sure that most models can participate in the fight. Without spears many of the warriors would need to move more to be able to get into a fight and to be able to contribute to the fights.

Another nice point to remember is that the spear adds an attack to the supported warrior. The spearman has effectively the same fight and strength as the supported warrior: an Uruk supported by a lowly orc hits as hard as an Uruk supported by another high-cost Uruk.

-- Pasi

Uh.... Is that another change in the new rulebook? In the ROTK version only those in base contact can strike wounds and they only get as many chances as they would without spear support.

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Nope, note the word "effectively"*. The spear support works as it used to do in RotK: the warrior in base contact uses his fight and strength and has an extra attack. The point was that a lousy warrior with spear does give the superior warrior in front an extra attack at the superior warrior's own F and from the extra attack follows also the extra strike with the superior S.

In practice: Uruk warrior is fighting and an orc is supporting him. They roll two dice, their Fight is the same as the Uruk's. If they win, they hit two strikes at the Uruk's strength. If the orc were with the Uruk in a multiple fight (also in base contact with the enemy), they would still use the highest F but each of them would strike using their own S, which in the orc's case is lower.

Did I make myself confusing enough?

*Unless you meant that the warrior in base contact rolls two dice to see who wins the fight and then only one to strike. That has not been the case in RotK or in the new rules.

-- Pasi

the spears donnot have any donwsides at all because:


gondor, mordor and the elves can equip with both spear and shield meaning they donnot have less defence.

uruks have the advantage of being able to fight through twice (with two pikemen) thus boosting by two, an advantage that is worth both the high pointscost and the lack of a shield.

rohan dudes get to use throwing spears, in my opinion the best range weapon becuase of the shields they get to use and the charge and throw rule. a whole bunch of advantages that compensate for the lack of fighting through rule.
same goes for mounted models

becuase harad dont have the shield choice it makes the use of a spear more important that ever. you second rank troops donnot have less defence and both your first and second rank can fight through models making it very hard to trap harad and take away there spears (they just have to many)

i cannot think of a single race in witch i would not field spears except for highelves becuase i would want to field them without there shields (cost to much) and it would take to long to convert them, and i prefer the twohanded swords to the spears (somewhat of a dwarf stratagist you might say)

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