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 Post subject: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:40 am 
Loremaster
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So alright.....been looking at the army list. With a Mirkwood elf, you can replace an elven blade for a point with a bow, or a glaive.

But that means you cant replace a weapon twice meaning you cant have a bow and a spear on the rear line troop?

I think thats ridiculous unless Im reading it wrong.

If they did it this way I hope its faq'd. All its going to do is motivate power gaming or army mixing.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:40 am 
Elven Warrior
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Not being able to have a bow and glaive simultaneously seems very much the intention.
So.. not sure why they would then change it in an errata.

It's probably done because no available models are equipped that way, and any conversions to get the ubiquitous spear-armed-archer tend to be spears (or cocktail sticks..) stuck to the back of models with bows, which looks fairly ridiculous. Now I know Lake-town and Iron Hills with (cross)bows can still have regular spears, so maybe it's specifically aimed at weapons used with two hands - wouldn't surprise me if Uruk-hai will no longer be able to take both pikes and crossbows at the same time at some point in the future.

Not sure how this promotes power gaming, seeing how it actually stops something that's tactically sound but aesthetically displeasing. Ditto for army mixing; one is hardly going to ally in some completely different troops just because they happen to combine bows and spears, if the Elven archer likely has superior armour, fight, shoot value, range, strength of missile...
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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Uhhhh yeah aesthetics aside its an unarguable fact that this and any army becomes more competitive by putting spear support behind their front line.

So whether it be more elves or something else, these guys need spear support.

You're missing my point entirely.


You can easily make an army with maxed elven bows and allied spear support to back the elves. I dont know where you play, or how competitive it is but yeah....

I've got nothing against them man. I like the profiles and the models. I like the heroes. I just know I have to build the army a particular way at this juncture if Im going to actual tournaments to win games. Its a mistake if these guys compete with one line of elves and its expensive as hell points wise to back up their front line with glaive troops. Youll need two full warbands minimum to try to balance it.

But again, I dont think you get where Im going with this. Im speaking purely from a competitive standpoint. This is the tactics section after all.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:15 am 
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Yeah new elves suuuuck :(

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:37 pm 
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I'm so glad this is happening. Personally I hate it when everyone gives spears to their archers cause it makes them look terrible and is also clearly just for in-game benefit rather than theme, regardless of what anyone says. I'd love for GW to say that no warriors apart from rangers could have spears and bows at once, cause it just seems unthematic and frankly a bit cheesy.
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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:29 pm 
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I agree with Lord Elrond, it makes so much more sense this way, in the movie you see all the elves armed with one thing or the other - the archers actually step out of the way to let the spears through - so all it does it remove the power-gamer/tournament optimisation option and instead give the player more of a choice about the way he wants to play the game.

As for the new elves sucking - nothing could be further from the truth, the jump from D4 to D5 is absolutely huge - the fact that your whole army is now either D5 or D6 gives you big bonuses against both S3 and S4. The defence boost has helped Thranduil's Halls FAR more than the loss of a bow+spear option has hindered them. I took a fluffy Thranduil's Halls list to the Warhammer World GT last week (Thranduil, Leggy, 10 Palace Guard, 12 Mirkwood Elves, 2 Knights), probably the most competitive and filth-heavy event in the UK. They won two out of their three games and came damn close to winning the third against absolute filth (Shadow Lord on Fell Beast, spectre, Golden King, taskmaster, Reavers with axes, spear supports) - Thranduil's Halls is now an incredibly versatile and effective army list, the idea that they have been somehow nerfed into oblivion is hilarious!

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:28 pm 
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I agree with LordElrond and those rules are in fact exactly what my gaming group plays- only spears supporting the same type of model and no spears & bows unless you're a Ranger, because of the model. Work's nicely and feels less cheesy.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:22 am 
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Yeah fair enough. They aren't horrible but that's one of the nice things about sbg is that all the lists are reasonably balanced. I guess I just think Thranduil's halls is less competitive then the old wood elves list and pre There and back again you could more a less play a similar list to the old wood elves, Thranduil with the crown, spam cheapish elves but now you can't play a list like that and you have to do the big heroes and elites which doesn't seem like as strong of build, not horrible, just not as good.

I think the equipment options is a less of a problem though but having to buy armor and blades on all the elves feel bad to me, not to mention the uptick in points for Thranduil.

Congrats on the success though!

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:34 am 
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Jacob wrote:
I agree with LordElrond and those rules are in fact exactly what my gaming group plays- only spears supporting the same type of model and no spears & bows unless you're a Ranger, because of the model. Work's nicely and feels less cheesy.


Limiting the ability to carry bow and spear to certain models only would also be a perfect way to made those units unique without resorting to special rules. Considering that every single model in TABA has at least one, I would consider that an improvement.
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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:23 am 
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Dr Grant wrote:
I agree with Lord Elrond, it makes so much more sense this way, in the movie you see all the elves armed with one thing or the other - the archers actually step out of the way to let the spears through - so all it does it remove the power-gamer/tournament optimisation option and instead give the player more of a choice about the way he wants to play the game.

As for the new elves sucking - nothing could be further from the truth, the jump from D4 to D5 is absolutely huge - the fact that your whole army is now either D5 or D6 gives you big bonuses against both S3 and S4. The defence boost has helped Thranduil's Halls FAR more than the loss of a bow+spear option has hindered them. I took a fluffy Thranduil's Halls list to the Warhammer World GT last week (Thranduil, Leggy, 10 Palace Guard, 12 Mirkwood Elves, 2 Knights), probably the most competitive and filth-heavy event in the UK. They won two out of their three games and came damn close to winning the third against absolute filth (Shadow Lord on Fell Beast, spectre, Golden King, taskmaster, Reavers with axes, spear supports) - Thranduil's Halls is now an incredibly versatile and effective army list, the idea that they have been somehow nerfed into oblivion is hilarious!


Nobody said they were nerfed to oblivion that's an extreme statement. I don't think Polywags was totally serious.

Yeah they're definitely still very good. I used one warband of them with Thranduil and they were potent alone.

The problem with your movie example is that is not how it works in the game. Your guys cannot walk through each other's bases nearly grazing ear to ear and slide into position. That would be great but it's not how it is.

I'm not too upset with the lack of spear support but I do see some players as you exemplified probably pairing them with other things.

Lord Elrond has a cool idea with the rangers. That gives them a special something to represent their skill set.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:28 am 
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Oh and how did those knights do? I've wanted to use em.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:38 am 
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I think the knights are really pretty good. 2-4 seems right, if you can afford them. potentially 3 dice to win the fight with elf fight is pretty good!

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:18 am 
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I like the new additions to the army list. We lost some versatility in heroes and warriors, but the warriors we have now are a lot better overall. Legolas and Tauriel are a good combo at lower point values and once you get above 500 Thranduil and palace guard/Knights can really come into play.

A sample 500 point list would be:
Legolas with cloak,orcsrist
Tauriel with bow
10 mirkwood rangers
14 mirkwood warriors with 1 piece of kit
499 points

Not the most practical for collecting, but should be pretty effective in combat.

The biggest problem I have with them is actually at higher points, because then you will be facing more magic but won't have many options to counter it without sacrificing numbers and allying in.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:10 am 
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LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
If they did it this way I hope its faq'd. All its going to do is motivate power gaming or army mixing.

I fail to see how removing the option to have a more optimal setup is going to encourage power gaming. I also fail to see how army mixing is a bad thing, as you gain the options that allies offer, but lose the army specific bonus. I just don't get your complaint about this.

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 Post subject: Re: New Mirkwood Warband building. No bows and spears??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:32 am 
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People constantly ally in armies to get something they don't have in a one faction list. That's how all maximizing lists starts. How are you confused by this?

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