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 Post subject: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:49 pm 
Wayfarer
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Denethor has the Broken Mind special rule that allows your opponent to control him if he fails his test.

So if he charges one of his own, rolls a six and you roll a five Denethor wins the fight....

The question is:
If you (good) are in range of a banner, can you choose to re-roll Denethors die, hoping to change the six to a lower number?

If not, can Denethor use evil banners?

And as a bonus question (a wild bonus question appears!!!) can the evil player kill Denethor while they control him? I'm guessing he can be forced off cliffs and such but can the evil players charge him/make him charge them
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:17 pm 
Kinsman
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SteezyBaggins wrote:
Denethor has the Broken Mind special rule that allows your opponent to control him if he fails his test.

So if he charges one of his own, rolls a six and you roll a five Denethor wins the fight....

The question is:
If you (good) are in range of a banner, can you choose to re-roll Denethors die, hoping to change the six to a lower number?


No. Banners apply to friendly models. Denethor becomes an evil model, with the exceptions noted in his profile.


SteezyBaggins wrote:
If not, can Denethor use evil banners?


Yes. Same reasoning.


SteezyBaggins wrote:
And as a bonus question (a wild bonus question appears!!!) can the evil player kill Denethor while they control him? I'm guessing he can be forced off cliffs and such but can the evil players charge him/make him charge them


No. You can't fight other friendly models.
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Thank you Men are weak!

If he counts as a friendly model do their control zones have any effect?
If not an evil player would be able to surround and trap Denethor before the next turn, correct?
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:59 pm 
Kinsman
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I'm not sure I'm completely understanding the question, but I'll do my best. Denethor has a control zone that applies in the same way as other models in the side with which he is aligned that turn. So if he's good, he has a control zone that applies to evil models (but good models can move right past him or next to him). If he's evil, his control zone applies to good models (but evil models can move right past him or next to him).

He'd never be trapped at the end of a turn, as all fights are resolved before the end of a turn, and there should be space between good/evil models at end of turn.
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Men are weak wrote:
He'd never be trapped at the end of a turn, as all fights are resolved before the end of a turn, and there should be space between good/evil models at end of turn.


This is what confuses me. If in one turn he is evil and evil surrounds him and next turn he passes his test and is good, then what?
The turn would start with evil models in his control zone and him being trapped, which is otherwise not possible.

And if he is not trapped but still inside a models control zone would he be allowed to move away or forced to fight?

I'm not sure which rule would overrule the other :?
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:14 pm 
Kinsman
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In the rules, they say that you can't enter into an enemy control zone unless you charge (meaning, you want to fight that enemy).

If you have a model which starts in an enemy control zone, you can move inside it but you can't move closer to the enemy (if you do so, you are assuming to charge). But you can move away.

In your case, if Denethor (Good side) is inside an enemy control zone at the end of his turn, he can only move away or charge. But if he's in base contact with an enemy, I don't know what to do (because the Evil player can put Denethor in base contact with an Orc at his turn, if he controls him)...
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:17 pm 
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If he ends his turn in base contact, then I think the same process applies as if he’d been surrounded/trapped and lost the fight. The enemy models in base contact would have to back away so he is not in base contact at the beginning of the next turn.

As a general rule good and evil should never start a turn in base contact. So even though he was controlled as an evil model in the first turn, he is still a good model, with the possibility of being a good model, in the next turn – and needs to be treated as such. The best thing for the evil player to do is to surround him to limit his move options.
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Thank you for your replies! I might just take Denethor in a game just to confuse my opponent... Haha

I guess things like horns influence his courage test, but is it possible for another hero to use his Stand Fast! in order to keep Denethor on the team? (if that hero's stand fast applies to heroes as well of course)
Or would the Stand Fast always come after Denethors test?

I'm trying to figure out how much risk he is for his low point cost. He seems fun though...
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:21 pm 
Kinsman
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Yeah, horns are great to boost his courage test !

The courage test done by the special rule is different from the one when the force is broken.

1) before players roll for priority, Denethor has to take a courage test to stay with the Good player.

2) If he passes, and the Good force is broken, Denethor has to take another courage test to stay on the battlefield. If he fails the first test, Denethor is then an Evil model. I suppose that if the Evil force is broken, Denethor has to take a courage test too (but with evil).


Nothing and nobody can help Denethor for the 1st test. For the second one, act as usual ("Stand Fast!" rule if another hero can make heroes benefit from it (such as "Saruman the Wise")).
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:18 pm 
Kinsman
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Tar-Minastir and Iargonien are both accurate. The only thing I'll add is that I'd say the risks of using Denethor are pretty low. He has Courage 5, so you'd need to roll a 4 or less, which isn't common, and he has 3 points of Will to boost up low rolls. Personally, I like having him, due to his low cost, and because I think the risks of him hurting me are usually pretty low.

It partially depends on your opponent. Against ringwraiths wtih Harbinger of Evil and the ability to drain courage, then he can be a drag. But against many forces, he's just fine.
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:15 am 
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I have the same feeling than "Men are weak". I've used Denethor in a few games and he hardly disappointed me. He's good for his points, and the special rule won't hurt you often.
Keep in mind that with def 5 and 2 wounds / 0 fate, he's fragile ;)
Keep him away from arrows and big heroes, and he should perform well :)
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Was just about to create a post but this is on topic.

Surely aura of command can be used to past the courage test?

The rule does say 'all courage tests', so I cannot see a reason why this would not be case.
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:56 am 
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Teacups17 wrote:
Surely aura of command can be used to past the courage test?


I've never faced that situation, but if it had to happen in a game, I would assume that you could use "Aura of Command" to pass Denethor's special rule :)

I might have been a bit too restrictive when saying "Nothing and nobody can help Denethor for the 1st test". My apologies :p
But definitely, other heroes can't use their "Stand Fast" to pass it, because the special rule clearly states that the test is done before Initiative Phase, whereas "Stand Fast" happens during Move Phase :)
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 Post subject: Re: Denethor special rule
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Well to be honest it only just occured to me and I wanted to check it was ok.

I agree with the stand fast not being able to, so there really are only a couple of heroes that can help him pass. Luckily for me I have started using Saruman with Minas Tirith so that works perfectly for me.
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