All times are UTC


It is currently Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:51 pm



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:40 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:20 am
Posts: 1367
Images: 14
Herein we shall discuss the adventures of Radagast and Beowdil.

A little birdie indicated that such a thread would be nice so as not to disrupt the flow of the fiction.

I'm kind of glad it was recommended because now I have a place to post my Beowdil mini. That is once I find one to represent him. I know what i want, but I haven't found one to match my thoughts. Well, I've found some, but before I commit to buying them I wanted to see if I already owned something among my piles of unpainted minis.

I should indicate for the sake of the readers that the Radagast referred to in the fiction is not PJs Radagast, but was based on GW's original iteration of Radagast. I give kudos to PJ for breaking the stereotype of pointy hat wizards, but the lunatic we see in AUJ and DOS doesn't befit an istari. A DnD wizard, sure, but not a Maia spirit.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:17 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Somewhere in the Wild or by the Gaming Table in Imladris
Nice story! We read and enjoy each new part when it comes out. :) Its kinda like the serial stories you read at the back of cereal boxes when you're have breakfast, just way, way better!

Fan fiction can be really intersting, as long as it always respects and honours the source material. Expanding the story, adding new characters, putting your own personal touch, is all great!

I think your Radagast is indeed more like Tolkien's Radagast. PJ's Radagast did not fit in with the Istari at all. To tell the honest truth, we enjoyed Radagast on the big screen. Really liked the character (even got the mini!), with his guano on his face and his rabbit sleigh, and crazy though lovable ways. From a Middle-earth perspective though, he was just awful. One of those things you can enjoy from the Hobbit films if you just take it at face value and don't try to work it into Tolkien's picture.

Your concept we find a little strange. The idea of Radagast going on a journey Southward with Beowdil is new. Interested how it works out! Wonder, will Radagast use some of his powers with nature on the Mumakil?

Wishing you the best with Raddy and Dil!

Elladan

P.S. Tweet tweet. :wink:

_________________
The Sons of Elrond

We have the Appearance of Men, the Souls of Elves, and Behave like Dwarves.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:15 am 
Ringwraith
Ringwraith
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:56 pm
Posts: 3736
Location: The Height of Nonsense
PJ is like everyone else - we all have our own perceptions and understandings of life. I always saw Radagast as more dignified but perhaps slightly desperate as so much of the nature of Middle-earth was being spoiled and corrupted by evil and greed.

Additional thoughts: alright, considering the movies had to be of a finite length and also had to be accessible to newcomers, quite a few minor characters were edited out or had their roles subsumed into other characters - Erkenbrand, Beregond and others disappeared from the movies. It is one of those things where a book, a play, a graphic novel gives one account and for many reasons (not all of them good) the cinematic variation can be significantly different. I suppose I have more of a beef with it regarding The Hobbit but I can watch Bot5A as a bit of entertainment and spectacle but it is not what I see in the mind's eyes when I read the book again. That version is more grim, desperate and 'realistic' as far as fantasy can be.

_________________
Published ebooks:
Instrument of the Empire
A Note of Defiance
Phantom Ships, Ghost Flotilla
More to come!
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 10:38 am 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:20 am
Posts: 1367
Images: 14
Elladan & Elrohir wrote:
Wonder, will Radagast use some of his powers with nature on the Mumakil?


Ha! Funny you should mention that. It was addressed.

Thanks for the encouragement!
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:24 pm 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:42 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: In Angband, at Morgoth's feet.
jdizzy001 wrote:
I give kudos to PJ for breaking the stereotype of pointy hat wizards, but the lunatic we see in AUJ and DOS doesn't befit an istari. A DnD wizard, sure, but not a Maia spirit.

Saruman didn't think Radagast was much of an Istari either. Both Saruman and Gandalf viewed Radagast as almost a simpleton, Saruman with disgust but Gandalf with some sense of fondness. As for movie Radagast, I figure that PJ added in a good amount of Tom Bombadil.

_________________
:saruman "Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 6:48 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:20 am
Posts: 1367
Images: 14
That makes sense.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 2:05 pm 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Somewhere in the Wild or by the Gaming Table in Imladris
Draugluin wrote:
As for movie Radagast, I figure that PJ added in a good amount of Tom Bombadil.


Tom Bombadil? I can find little or nothing similar between those two. Tom is an enigma, a kind of spirit. He is a witty sing-song kind of character, yet behind him is a very great power. He laughs at the One Ring, and can control everything within his own boarders simply by his Words. He is worry-less and carefree, to the point that he would probably misplace the Ring if it was trusted to him.

PJ's Radagast on the other hand is a an emotional, eccentric nutty scatterbrain, smeared in guano and distraught about his animals. He is not like Tom at all. I believe both are Spirits, (I disagree with the theory that Tom is Eru Iluvatar) but other than their love of nature, the two are very dissimilar (at least with PJ's version of him).

PJ's depiction of Radagast is correct with his obsession with animals and nature, and his ceaseless worry and care about them. PJ is wrong however in showing him as a comic eccentric in rags with guano on his face. Radagast is often misunderstood and looked down upon because he understands and connects with nature and animals, (something which Saruman holds in contempt. Compare with Saruman's destruction of Nature, favouring industrialisation. Saruman is the opposite of Radagast.) not because Radagast is a tree hugging lunatic! I wouldn't believe Tolkien imagined him as losing all his respect and presence as an Istari. He is a powerful spirit who cares after the funa and flora of Middle-earth, not some crazed hippy running around with his animal friends.

On a note about what we said with Radagast journeying Southward, Gandalf says he doesn't like to travel much, unless for a very urgent reason. It must be very important! Wonder what it is! :)

Elladan

_________________
The Sons of Elrond

We have the Appearance of Men, the Souls of Elves, and Behave like Dwarves.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:41 pm 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:42 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: In Angband, at Morgoth's feet.
Tom was fairly "scatterbrained". He had no concerns, and nothing stayed in his mind for very long. Gandalf (or Elrond, I forget who it was) said he would lose the Ring if they gave it to him because he just didn't care. He was very sing-song, jolly and carefree, which can easily be considered scatterbrained and simplistic. Movie Radagast was portrayed and as being a scatterbrained nature lover, which is exactly what Tom was.

_________________
:saruman "Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:23 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Somewhere in the Wild or by the Gaming Table in Imladris
You could call them both "scatterbrained", but for different reasons and in very different ways. Tom would lose the Ring because it just wasn't his priority. He hasn't a care in the world beside what lies within his boarders. The Ring is a toy and just isn't important to one of the greatest beings in Middle-earth (if not the the greatest). All is well with Bombadillo. Film Radagast now is fidgety, worried, restless, and slightly mental guy with "unsettled" nerves. He is a scatterbrain in a very different sense. Tom and film Radagast are not alike.

On another tangent, I think that Radagast's appearance in the Hobbit might be a kind of disguise he puts on to hide his real power. It is his funny fluffy outside that conceals the real wizard. In my mind though, I still wouldn't make him lose what I feel is all the dignity of an Astari. I would not make him into a comic character for children.

Elladan

_________________
The Sons of Elrond

We have the Appearance of Men, the Souls of Elves, and Behave like Dwarves.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:24 pm 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:42 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: In Angband, at Morgoth's feet.
The only time we saw him in the books was when he was very fidgety and looking for Gandalf. He was extremely afraid of the Nazgul, so that part of his characterization if completely correct. Each of the Istari was supposed to be very different, Saruman was a high and mighty jerk who held himself with a LOT of dignity. Gandalf really didn't have all that much use for dignity. He was very compassionate and cared about blending with the common folk. We don't know anything about the Blue Wizards, but Radagast was a complete loner, we don't know too much about his character.

_________________
:saruman "Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:51 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:20 am
Posts: 1367
Images: 14
Wow, compeling arguements on all sides.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 1:33 pm 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Somewhere in the Wild or by the Gaming Table in Imladris
Radagast was indeed afraid of the Nine, but so was Gandalf. Even the Wise are uneasy when the Nine are abroad. My point was that he is very different from Tom Bombadil, who himself went singing and laughing into a Barrow.

It is true we know very little of Radagast from the books. We were however comparing the film Radagast with Tom Bombadil, and from the shots we see of him in the films I cannot find any real parallels between him and Tom.

Back to comparing film Radagast with book Radagast, the only person in the books who ever called Radagast a simpleton or fool was Saruman. He says this openly at the height of his pride and scorn, when he called all of Gandalf's friends "fools", and even said of Gandalf, "I did not expect you to show wisdom." I cannot remember anything about Gandalf treating Radagast as a friendly old fool, or ever showing any signs of sympathetic fondness for him. This comes from PJ and the AUJ. Gandalf just calls him a cousin, colleague, and a member of the Order. He is a friend and ally of Gandalf's. To take Saruman seriously and represent Radagast as a simpleton or fool is a grave mistake. He is a master of shapes and hues, herbs and plants, beasts and especially birds. Others may misunderstand him, and fail to appreciate his work, but he isn't a simpleton or fool. He is not the "typical" Istari either, because all the Istari are different and have different callings. He is however certainly not the friendly fool PJ shows us. In no part in the book is he shown as a scatterbrain or nutter. As for dignity, even animals don't normally walk around with poo on their faces. I'm not saying Radagast has the same self-importance as Saruman, but as an Istari he should not be running around looking worse than his animal friends.

We have worked with animals, and we know that humans (or wizards) need a certain authority and presence when with them. Only when you are above the animals can you truly work with or help them, or even really be their friends. Radagast is not a snuffling little hedgehog, rummaging about in the dirt. He is a wizard, guardian and friend of the birds and beasts. If anything he would take on their more noble characteristics. In the film he is shown mostly together with cute hedgehogs, bunnies, and tweety birds. Is he not also the friend of foxes, deers, bears, ravens, owls, eagles and all the higher animals? In that sense the old GW Radagast miniature is more like my interpretation of the book Radagast. A great wizard, the noble and wise protector of the forest that can summon the birds and beasts to his aid in times of need.

Of course so little is known about Radagst from books that PJ's version may indeed be the right one, but in my opinion PJ's sits badly among the Istari and doesn't befit a Maia spirit, even one who has gone "wild" and spends most of his time in the wild with the beasts and his bird friends.

jdizzy001 wrote:
Wow, compeling arguements on all sides.

The famous "Water Lilies vs. Mushrooms" debates. Lol. :-D I enjoy these talks, its great to think through Tolkien's universe, you always come out with a greater appreciation for the books and films.

Elladan

_________________
The Sons of Elrond

We have the Appearance of Men, the Souls of Elves, and Behave like Dwarves.


Last edited by Elladan & Elrohir on Mon May 25, 2015 8:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:15 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:20 am
Posts: 1367
Images: 14
I like what you said about Radagast's mission. I recall in Unfinished Tales something to the effect of Radagast being a final last minute addition to the Istari team by Yavanna to look after fauna, presumably.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:11 am 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:42 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: In Angband, at Morgoth's feet.
As a matter of fact, animals do indeed walk around with feces and urine on their face. Goat bucks pee on their face to attract females, dogs eat their own puke and poo, there are dung beetles. I agree that the GW version is more what I would have thought, but the PJ version really isn't anywhere near as bad as you made him seem. Tom was completely at one with nature and was completely carefree and fairly absent minded. There were several times when he completely lost track of time and he would have lost the ring. Does that make Tom a simpleton? No, but it does give him the appearance of someone who is. I don't think Gandalf ever called Radagast a simpleton, but I'm pretty sure that when he was talking to Saruman about him, he definitely had a certain fondness, and respect, for Radagast that an older brother would have for a younger sibling. You're right, there is no typical Istari, we are only shown 3, and one was fallen and another died and came back to replace the first. If you had control over animals, you wouldn't need to be their boss, Radagast was their friend, he didn't need to be above them.

Sorry for the rambling, it was late and I was just responding to each of your comments as I thought of them.

_________________
:saruman "Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 8:28 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Somewhere in the Wild or by the Gaming Table in Imladris
jdizzy001 wrote:
I like what you said about Radagast's mission. I recall in Unfinished Tales something to the effect of Radagast being a final last minute addition to the Istari team by Yavanna to look after fauna, presumably.


Tolkien once said that Radagast actually failed his calling as a wizard by becoming absorbed with animals and neglecting his other duties as an Istari. Radagast "fell", to a lesser extent than Saruman did. Christopher Tolkien comments on this and says that it would rather seem that animals and nature were in fact Radagast calling from Yavanna. This makes sense. He was sent to Middle-earth to protect its fauna and flora, a mission just as important as Gandalf's or Saruman's. This also ties in with his name, which means "tender of beasts."

Elladan

_________________
The Sons of Elrond

We have the Appearance of Men, the Souls of Elves, and Behave like Dwarves.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:22 pm 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Somewhere in the Wild or by the Gaming Table in Imladris
Draugluin wrote:
As a matter of fact, animals do indeed walk around with feces and urine on their face. Goat bucks pee on their face to attract females, dogs eat their own puke and poo, there are dung beetles.

This is just my point. Most animals do not ordinarily do this unless they are sick, mental, or mating. (Our dogs are always eating rubbish twice. :) ) For an Istari the association is not good. I'd imagine Radagast as maybe taking on the animals more noble or "poetic" characteristics, as they appear in fairytales or the imagination. Sharp eyed like an eagle, wise like an old owl, swift and sure footed like a deer in the woods. This would better fit a Middle-earth wizard. I admit I did use rather too hard expressions when describing PJ's Radagast (A sorry tendency to exaggerate :oops: ), but what I'm trying to point out is that Radagast doesn't need to be so whacky and out of place. I prefer to picture him more like a druid, a real power in the forest and a more serious ally. Or maybe kind of like a Istari Red Indian, at one with Nature and himself.

We could start a whole new thread about working with animals. I'm not saying he bosses them around like minions. I'm saying he should have and show the one real and healthy relationship you should have with animals (wild or not). You need respect for them, you need patience, you need authority, you need skill, etc. The mumbling fool in the AUJ doesn't really show any of this. His clumsy and emotional attitude when Sabastian was dying wasn't exactly helping the situation. Luckily, he realised it was "witchcraft" and used a spell to save his pet.

I also have a tendency to ramble. The workings of great minds. :) My mind goes off and I have to pull myself back and remember what the point was!

Elladan

_________________
The Sons of Elrond

We have the Appearance of Men, the Souls of Elves, and Behave like Dwarves.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:17 am 
Elven Elder
Elven Elder
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:42 pm
Posts: 3136
Location: In Angband, at Morgoth's feet.
You only need authority with animals if you can't actually control and speak directly to them.

Just today one of my dogs was rolling in some deer droppings he found. Animals are quite dumb, not like the ones that we saw with Beorn.

Have you ever seen Castaway with Tom Hanks? Radagast was mumbling about the same as him, but Radagast has basically been on his own for centuries, not a few years.

I think I've said that Radagast wasn't exactly how I pictured him, but it definitely isn't so far fetched in a world with Beorn's animal servants, or singing goblins, or talking spiders.

_________________
:saruman "Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 3:31 pm 
Craftsman
Craftsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:23 pm
Posts: 308
Location: Off on another adventure
Images: 1
is beodwill son of wulf based on beowulf?

_________________
In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 5:45 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:20 am
Posts: 1367
Images: 14
The name Beowdil might be a combination of Beowulf and Elendil. Maybe. The character however is not based on Beowulf. Any similarities are purely coincidence.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Unsung Heroes - Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:05 am 
Craftsman
Craftsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:23 pm
Posts: 308
Location: Off on another adventure
Images: 1
any updates?

_________________
In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: