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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:55 am 
Craftsman
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I enjoyed the books and the movies, some of the similarities irked me when I first read them, but they quickly become Rowlings and not carbon copies. The one thing you didn't mention was the dementors they, screamed ringwraith to me immediately and still bug me to some extent, but the difference is the Dementors actually work for the good guys they just get abused and used inproperly. What bothered me was the black hooded screaming ghost that stalks the heroes early on and throughout the series that was too similar and distracting on film. The movies are not bad, but the inconsistencies with magic use and the "jedi wizards"was annoying, much preferred the book version of magic use. I don't like it near as much as LOTR, heck it probably doesnt make my top ten of books or movies. What Tolkien had was the benefit of time and back story. He wrote not for money or deadlines but for the love of the world he escaped to. Rowling used it as a coping mechanism and to express herself, and above all for money. Once they caught on the books and her writing style became rushed and erratic and muddled.
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:52 pm 
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On Eragon, I thought the first two were quite boring, but the last two were better - if very, very, very predictable.

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:35 pm 
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RangerofTheNorth wrote:
I enjoyed the books and the movies, some of the similarities irked me when I first read them, but they quickly become Rowlings and not carbon copies. The one thing you didn't mention was the dementors they, screamed ringwraith to me immediately and still bug me to some extent, but the difference is the Dementors actually work for the good guys they just get abused and used inproperly. What bothered me was the black hooded screaming ghost that stalks the heroes early on and throughout the series that was too similar and distracting on film. The movies are not bad, but the inconsistencies with magic use and the "jedi wizards"was annoying, much preferred the book version of magic use. I don't like it near as much as LOTR, heck it probably doesnt make my top ten of books or movies. What Tolkien had was the benefit of time and back story. He wrote not for money or deadlines but for the love of the world he escaped to. Rowling used it as a coping mechanism and to express herself, and above all for money. Once they caught on the books and her writing style became rushed and erratic and muddled.


This.
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:52 am 
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Hi, can we please refrain from excessive quoting followed by "this"? The site policy is to discourage pointless posts of "+1" and "this", etc, please see discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23626&start=40

Same goes with excessive quoting, you really only need a snippet, not the whole thing. I mention it here because this is possibly one of the worst offending threads in that regard :)

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And, btw Telchar, that green text is...hideous... :shock: I can't even read it.
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:42 am 
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whafrog wrote:
And, btw Telchar, that green text is...hideous... :shock: I can't even read it.


I had to highlight it to read it...
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:06 am 
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Curufinwë wrote:
I had to highlight it to read it...


Doesn't work so well on the iPad :)
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:47 am 
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I'm not really a Harry Potter fan but I dont think she ripped off Tolkien. Most fantasy stories have very similar elements in them and both novels have very different vibes attached to them.

On the other hand Eragon is an absolute rip off of the Star Wars story.
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Sorry. I can't find my usual red tone...

And I agree with Sticky Fingersss on both accounts.

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:51 am 
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If you want to talk about rip offs pretty much the whole of Middle earth can be considered a rip off of the Prose Edda, even down to literally lifting the names of characters. Harry Potter does suck though

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:44 am 
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wherethere'sawhip wrote:
If you want to talk about rip offs pretty much the whole of Middle earth can be considered a rip off of the Prose Edda, even down to literally lifting the names of characters. Harry Potter does suck though


I pointed that one out a couple pages back too. I wouldn't go so far as to say "whole of Middle Earth" but a lot of very specific details. But it's how the re-imaging of the 'borrowed' parts are assembled and presented that needs to be measured. Not just for JRRT and JKR but all writers/film makers/game designers that we seek enjoyment and entertainment from. It's hard to have fully new ideas, but it's important that they make the older ideas their own in interesting and creative ways.

BTW, love the name and avatar. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:32 am 
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Beowulf03809 wrote:
wherethere'sawhip wrote:
If you want to talk about rip offs pretty much the whole of Middle earth can be considered a rip off of the Prose Edda...


I pointed that one out a couple pages back too...


Funny, this thread is a microcosm of the OP...some of us are repeating what someone else said, but saying it a little differently.

Maybe Tolkien should have quoted the entire Edda, and then added "this" ;-)
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:49 pm 
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No, the Edda is not written half as interestingly as LotR :p.

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:26 pm 
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As has been said, mainly by whafrog, I'm sure Snorri Struluson, Egil Skalgrimsson and many others would have been quite peeved that Tolkein didn't even adapt much of the work, he just did a good old copy paste job. The entire of Thorin's Company including Gandalf are just copies of the few named Dark Elves (Dwarves) in those works.

As much as I don't like Harry Potter, a Tolkien fan would be a hippocrite to say its similar, even if some parts are, as many others have said, the similarities is nowhere near those of Medieval Icelandic works.

Nice to know some others here have an interest in Norse Mythology. :)

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:59 pm 
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Lol, this kinda sums it all up.

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:41 am 
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I disagree because I do not find Sam or Ron to be annoying. Some of the best characters in both.

Also, cartoons looked really bad imo.

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:21 pm 
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SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
I get in constant arguments with friends who actually have the cheek to claim Harry Potter is the better universe


Why is it cheeky of them to prefer Potter to Rings?

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:13 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
I disagree because I do not find Sam or Ron to be annoying. Some of the best characters in both.


I agree. Also, I think Rowling's side characters - Dumbledore, Snape and Hermione in particular - are very good and well written.

GodlessM wrote:
SuicidalMarsbar wrote:
I get in constant arguments with friends who actually have the cheek to claim Harry Potter is the better universe


Why is it cheeky of them to prefer Potter to Rings?


Because in literary value - not the thing that matters, I know - LotR is far, far, far better. In amusement value, well, I much prefer LotR, but Potter isn't bad either.

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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Here's a question: how do you determine if something has literary value or not?
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Jamros wrote:
Here's a question: how do you determine if something has literary value or not?


That is a very open ended question, but basically anything that brings something new to the table while being a well written and structured piece of work can be considered of literary value. Animal Farm has literary value because of how it transforms communism and capitalism into one big metaphor that anyone of any age can read and understand, but on the other hand, alot of Shakespeare's plays hold almost no literary value because of how biased and inaccurate (historically) they are, despite the fact they are very well written.
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 Post subject: Re: I really hate harry potter, is it a Tolkien rip off?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Commonly accepted standards are:

- The amount of "round" as opposed to "flat" characters
- The purpose of the work: merely to amuse or also to have some deeper meaning.
- The amount of intertextuality (ie. connections with other works) used.
- Etc.

I won't say I agree on all of them, but generally something that is fun not because it's a nice story for a single read, but because of beautiful language, symbolism, etc., is literature to me.

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