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 Post subject: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:39 pm 
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So... As we know, the gift of elves was pretty much not dying of age, while men got the gift of succumbing to age. It is told in The Silmarillion that the Vala Aulë created the Dwarves because he was impatient for the arising of the Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men). They got no gift. Unless you count coal from their mines. So... When Gimli went with Legolas to the Undying Lands, the powers could have granted him eternal life due to his friendship with Legolas. The same could go for hobbits, though we do not really know where they came from...

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:16 am 
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I think it is excepted that Gimli and the hobbits are living forever in Valinor. That is definitely the impression I got from the last bit of information on Gimli. I bet the old smith was pleased to see one of his works again.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Wan Shi Tong wrote:
I think it is excepted that Gimli and the hobbits are living forever in Valinor. That is definitely the impression I got from the last bit of information on Gimli. I bet the old smith was pleased to see one of his works again.

Feel like he would have kept tabs... But would be more glad that elves and dwarves weren't... Well... Killing eachother and going extinct like the petty dwarves. :gimli: :legolas:

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Wan Shi Tong wrote:
I think it is excepted that Gimli and the hobbits are living forever in Valinor. That is definitely the impression I got from the last bit of information on Gimli. I bet the old smith was pleased to see one of his works again.

One other thing I forgot: The undying realm was also jot void of death, as they still had a murder rate(killing occurs in the Silmarillion). So how long till someone comes along and kicks the hobbits and dwarf out? I also believe they only stay until they are tired of life, at which point Mandos takes over.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Cave Dragon wrote:
One other thing I forgot: The undying realm was also jot void of death, as they still had a murder rate(killing occurs in the Silmarillion). So how long till someone comes along and kicks the hobbits and dwarf out? I also believe they only stay until they are tired of life, at which point Mandos takes over.


I don't readily remember what exactly changed in Valinor (if anything other than position) after the War of Wrath, but let's not forget that Silmarillion Valinor is not at all in the same realm as later Valinor. It might be that heaven-Valinor has different rules than earlier Valinor. But that is all just speculation on my part.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:59 pm 
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I do not think so. It never says any thing changes. The valar still live there, and elves go there to live until they become tired of life.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:44 am 
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During the Silmarillion Valinor was part of the world but after the Numenorians invaded it was removed into another plan of existence so the rules could be drastically different in terms of dying from any cause. Also I don't recall Valinor being the place elves went until they grew tired of life, rather, it was the place they went when they got tired of living in Middle Earth. What sort of limitations to the stay of the Hobbits and Gimli is not mentioned as far as I can recall.

There is, of course, no reason to suspect that the Valar were able to do more than prolong their lives as it was with the Men of Westernesse. The lotr.wiki seems to believe that is the case at any rate. I suppose it makes the most sense seeing as how the Valar were unable or unwilling to grant anyone without elvish blood immortality. Would you agree with that line of reasoning?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:14 am 
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Wan Shi Tong wrote:
During the Silmarillion Valinor was part of the world but after the Numenorians invaded it was removed into another plan of existence so the rules could be drastically different in terms of dying from any cause. Also I don't recall Valinor being the place elves went until they grew tired of life, rather, it was the place they went when they got tired of living in Middle Earth. What sort of limitations to the stay of the Hobbits and Gimli is not mentioned as far as I can recall.

There is, of course, no reason to suspect that the Valar were able to do more than prolong their lives as it was with the Men of Westernesse. The lotr.wiki seems to believe that is the case at any rate. I suppose it makes the most sense seeing as how the Valar were unable or unwilling to grant anyone without elvish blood immortality. Would you agree with that line of reasoning?

Well, they gave men-elf hybrids a choice, so it would appear to be in their power as long as they do not alter Illuvitar's will...

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Cave Dragon wrote:
Wan Shi Tong wrote:
During the Silmarillion Valinor was part of the world but after the Numenorians invaded it was removed into another plan of existence so the rules could be drastically different in terms of dying from any cause. Also I don't recall Valinor being the place elves went until they grew tired of life, rather, it was the place they went when they got tired of living in Middle Earth. What sort of limitations to the stay of the Hobbits and Gimli is not mentioned as far as I can recall.

There is, of course, no reason to suspect that the Valar were able to do more than prolong their lives as it was with the Men of Westernesse. The lotr.wiki seems to believe that is the case at any rate. I suppose it makes the most sense seeing as how the Valar were unable or unwilling to grant anyone without elvish blood immortality. Would you agree with that line of reasoning?

Well, they gave men-elf hybrids a choice, so it would appear to be in their power as long as they do not alter Illuvitar's will...

That choice only has (im)mortality as an effect. They didn't grant (im)mortality, they granted the choice to be either elf or man, and after that choice everything still goes as intended. Elves don't die, men do.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:10 am 
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Amarthadan wrote:
Cave Dragon wrote:
Wan Shi Tong wrote:
During the Silmarillion Valinor was part of the world but after the Numenorians invaded it was removed into another plan of existence so the rules could be drastically different in terms of dying from any cause. Also I don't recall Valinor being the place elves went until they grew tired of life, rather, it was the place they went when they got tired of living in Middle Earth. What sort of limitations to the stay of the Hobbits and Gimli is not mentioned as far as I can recall.

There is, of course, no reason to suspect that the Valar were able to do more than prolong their lives as it was with the Men of Westernesse. The lotr.wiki seems to believe that is the case at any rate. I suppose it makes the most sense seeing as how the Valar were unable or unwilling to grant anyone without elvish blood immortality. Would you agree with that line of reasoning?

Well, they gave men-elf hybrids a choice, so it would appear to be in their power as long as they do not alter Illuvitar's will...

That choice only has (im)mortality as an effect. They didn't grant (im)mortality, they granted the choice to be either elf or man, and after that choice everything still goes as intended. Elves don't die, men do.

Or do men get life with Illuvatar, while elves are constrained to the mortal realm? Who is the real kortal, then? Are not our definitions askew?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Cave Dragon wrote:
Or do men get life with Illuvatar, while elves are constrained to the mortal realm? Who is the real kortal, then? Are not our definitions askew?

I take it you read the Athrabed?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:30 pm 
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I am fairly certain Gimli would remain mortal (though he might have had a long life because of the healing nature of the lands), much like the Hobbits. An article about this:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-ha ... -over-sea/
I can really recommend this website for any question about Tolkien's Middle-earth.
I'm afraid I can't remember where I read that the Hobbits remained mortal, though I am fairly sure Tolkien mentions it in the Appendices or his Letters somewhere.

On the topic of Frodo leaving:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/why-did ... the-shire/
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 Post subject: Re: Why Gimli could be immortal
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:01 am 
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Fëanor, the mighty elf wrote:
I am fairly certain Gimli would remain mortal (though he might have had a long life because of the healing nature of the lands), much like the Hobbits. An article about this:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-ha ... -over-sea/
I can really recommend this website for any question about Tolkien's Middle-earth.
I'm afraid I can't remember where I read that the Hobbits remained mortal, though I am fairly sure Tolkien mentions it in the Appendices or his Letters somewhere.

On the topic of Frodo leaving:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/why-did ... the-shire/

Well, in the Silmarilion, it is stated that even elves only femain there until they grow tired, and then go to Illuvatar. So really, immortal is being used as "until you feel like going on to World 3."

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