RotK film-taking of Osgiliath

Papa Hoth · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:46 am

G'day all,
This is somethihg that has bugged me for years. When Gothmog effects his landing on the Western shore of Anduin, we see young Faramir and his boys skulking behind various ruins etc as the orcs dis-embark from their landing craft[s]. Why does he do this? It seems militarily daft to let the enemy establish a foothold [and end up in the rear of Faramir and co]. Surely a counterattack as the orcs are bunched together and attempting to leave said craft would have been more effective.
No wonder Denethor was [word deleted] :-)

.
So, am I missing anything here?

cheers
Greg.

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

I've thought the same thing. Then he waits until a bunch of orcs pass to attack, almost as if he wanted to get surrounded.

Sticky Fingersss · **Joined:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 am **Posts:** 1072

The majority of military tactics used on films are nothing like the reality. That was simply done to heighten the pressure for Faramir for the audience.

Papa Hoth · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:20 am

Yeah, you're right; but that one just really stood out to me. I thought a little surprising though given PJ's interest in things military. I guess the average audience person may well have thought that Farras had a cunning plan.
hehe...with tactics like that I think he would make an admirable gaming opponent :-)

Hilbert · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:56 am

Mayve Faramir wanted to take them by surprise...
Sure Gothmog knew there would be forces to defend the city but he didn't know where they would be...

Ares B · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:24 am

It's a tactic that Finns used to good effect in WW2 against numerically superior Soviet forces. You let the enemy advance, then have them surrounded in a place where you have the advantage, cut off their supply lines and pick them off one by one.

Papa Hoth · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:04 am

Ahh, you may have it. German infantry also pulled a similar tactic when facing Soviet armour during the war. That makes sense to me, finally. :-0

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Ares B wrote:

It's a tactic that Finns used to good effect in WW2 against numerically superior Soviet forces. You let the enemy advance, then have them surrounded in a place where you have the advantage, cut off their supply lines and pick them off one by one.

Except that isn't what he did. What Faramir did was allow the enemy to surround him and then attempt to break out. If he had had some stratagem to delay the rest of the orcs disembarking from the landing craft it would have made sense. Let a quarter (or whatever) of the invasion force disembark, use some trick to stop the rest briefly, then wipe out the initial beachhead. Instead he let a bunch of them land, then had his men jump into the middle of them so that they are fighting the orcs coming off the boat but have a couple hundred at their backs too.

Ares B · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:33 am

ForgottenLore wrote:

Except that isn't what he did. What Faramir did was allow the enemy to surround him and then attempt to break out. If he had had some stratagem to delay the rest of the orcs disembarking from the landing craft it would have made sense. Let a quarter (or whatever) of the invasion force disembark, use some trick to stop the rest briefly, then wipe out the initial beachhead. Instead he let a bunch of them land, then had his men jump into the middle of them so that they are fighting the orcs coming off the boat but have a couple hundred at their backs too.

Well, you got to allow for movie drama. Hit&run tactics don't make a showy battle.

It was also a hasty defence they put up, since they were expecting the attack to come from the north and the opposite shore looked empty. It seems to me that the attempt was to pocket the enemy force to smaller bite-size chunks that the small group of defenders could take on, but there were simply too many orcs coming from different directions.

Hilbert · **Posted:** Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:07 am

Probably he didn't expect to be surrounded... Maybe if they had trebuchets so they could hit and sin some boats...

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:51 pm

They did have trebuchets. They were exchanging fire with orc catapults at the end of two towers before the winged nazgul went for Frodo

Hilbert · **Posted:** Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:30 pm

e...we are yalking about the rotk film... Didin;t you see the title... :roll:

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:23 pm

Yes, but they wouldn't uninstall the trebuchets after that battle. They would still be in place, they just didn't do so.

Angularity · **Joined:** Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:56 am **Posts:** 144

Well, I thought it was because he wanted to get in amongst the orcs who were a little less keen than the first ones off the boats. The ones in front are expecting a fight, and go charging in full of orcish adrenaline. Then F. comes out of the shadows and chops into the second-rank blokes, who were hanging back hoping it would all go away. The first-rank lads then are presented with a situation they weren't expecting, and have to either turn round and fight TOWARDS the boats, or keep going while their boats are burned and their mates thrown into the river. This allows F. to exploit their disorganisation and use surprise to his advantage.

The flaw in this otherwise cunning plan is that there were too many bad guys for any kind of tactics to work.

Or maybe I'm just analysing things too much??

Papa Hoth · **Posted:** Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:32 am

G'day Angularity,
Not a bad theory but I tend to think Faras had the tactical acumen of a football :-)

. I think that there was very little time between the eagle-eyed Gondorian sentry being shot and the sighting and landing of the orcs for elaborate planning. I reckon Ares B hit it on the head, particularly if allowing y'self to be partially over run was a standard 'tactic' for Mannish troops.
I think...
cheers
Greg

Angularity · **Joined:** Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:56 am **Posts:** 144

Faramir certainly wasn't portrayed as a tactical genius. His plan for when things went wrong seemed to be, 'run as fast as you can across this bare piece of ground and hope something turns up'.

Not designed to inspire confidence in the troops

jscottbowman · **Posted:** Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:56 am

I think there are a few things to think about here perhaps;

I dont really think faramir et al were expecting the orcs to attempt a boat crossing, hence they werent really ready for it, and when it did eventuate, he had to make the best of it with the troops he had in position...
I agree it seems odd to let them go past him first.
I can only think he was thinking like a ranger and trying to ambush the invading force, mixing it up with them in the hopes of confusion and the night may let them cause some damage before bugging out if possible...
At least its brave anyway, he could have just fired a few arrows and legged it...

What really irks me is Faramir leading his knights in the doomed charged against massed orc archery from troops adequately protected by dense terrain. What was he thinking? Cavalry charge versus troops in terrain doesnt work. Period! Hasnt he heard of Agincourt? ;-)

I can only ratify this this by thinking he is deliberately doing this as a suicidal charge, just to try and win back some sense of honour in his fathers eyes...

Scott

Sticky Fingersss · **Joined:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 am **Posts:** 1072

That's exactly why he did it, it had no tactical sense at all, it was simply a last ditch attempt to get his father to like him.

Angularity · **Joined:** Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:56 am **Posts:** 144

Sticky Fingersss wrote:

That's exactly why he did it, it had no tactical sense at all, it was simply a last ditch attempt to get his father to like him.

I've worked with officers like that.

"I want a good report this year, so please get your gear and prepare for Operation Certain Death..."

At least most of the tactics in the books are realistic, as JRRT served in the Great War (with my great-grandfather in the Lancashire Fusiliers, as it happens). Now Star Wars, there's a crock of tactical gold if ever I saw one!

GuardianoftheCitadel · **Joined:** Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:06 pm **Posts:** 193

Yes, as mentioned by sticky fingers I think it's to increase the pressure for Faramir and the audience.

Another example is when Theoden charges the Rohirrhim into the War Mumaks. They could have fled into Minas Tirith and taken them out with bows etc as the Mumaks couldn't enter the gate, saving hundreds of Rohirrhim from being trampled.

RotK film-taking of Osgiliath

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