What should have been in the movies

Sticky Fingersss · **Joined:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 am **Posts:** 1072

The army of the dead did annoy me, but I really enjoyed the battle in minas tirith. I liked the way that the men were losing. It gave a sense of dispare and desperation. The army of the dead made it too easy. I would have prefered the dead to be 'killable' as in you could damage them enough to no longer be decent fighters and their tactics were fear (i dont want to paint a picture of a bunch of orcs just running away from green mist, but I want to just say that the fear did impact upon the orcs enough for them to lose the battle)

Sacrilege83 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:04 pm

Draugluin wrote:

You have no idea how wrong you are. The "Noldorin Blades" weren't given to be the bane of the WK, and they weren't even used to stab him, Merry used a blade from Rohan.
They weren't simply ancient blades, the Barrow-Blades were crafted in Arnor and blessed to specifically remove the protections of the ringwraiths, because at the time the WK was laying siege to Arnor.

Well I've never claimed to be an expert like you are, so BRAVO for keeping track of every minute detail from the books and films! Still doesn't change my opinion that the filmakers did the right move of leaving Tom out, Fellowship was long enough as it was.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:20 pm

Sticky Fingersss wrote:

the fear did impact upon the orcs enough for them to lose the battle)

No they didn't, they used fear against the Corsairs of Umbar, they never even entered the Pelennor.

And Sacrildge, 1. I agree with Draugluin and I'm surprised you didn't know that about the 'barrow-blades', I thought it was comon knowledge. and 2. even the people watching the films noticed that the film started with and should therefore finish with Frodo.

Sacrilege83 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:01 am

^I know of the barow-blades and I don't think it to be that big of a part of the Lotr mythos and apparently neither did PJ. You have to introduce several main characters and a whole entire world to a film audience. Who is going to care about the back history of a knife and what it's meant for? As great as a villain Witchking was, he wasn't the chief antagonist.

And on your second point, most people would agree that the ending of RotK was way too long. That was one of the biggest critiques of the film, besides the army of the dead. Yeah the story would of felt incomplete without having the full ending, but that's why they have extended edition. Also when they show that last shot at the coronation, didn't they finish with Frodo and everyone bowing before him? I call that finishing with Frodo, especially when the scene before was him recovering and reuniting with the Fellowship. The only thing that would be missing, if it was stop there, would be the point that Frodo sacrificed himself because of the journey to destroy the ring.

You know the filmakers had a choice when developing the movies. Either cater to the millions of Lotr novel fans worldwide by keeping true to all of the lore or cater to the half-billion casual movie-goers by giving them a not so complicated and simplified version of the lore & story of Lotr. We all know which rout they've chosen, and secondly I agree with them when the film makers say that it's impossible to translate everything from the books to the silver screen. Some things would just get lost in translation and they would just kill their film audience.

Dead Marsh Spectre · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:19 am

Sacrilege83 wrote:

You know the filmakers had a choice when developing the movies. Either cater to the millions of Lotr novel fans worldwide by keeping true to all of the lore or cater to the half-billion casual movie-goers by giving them a not so complicated and simplified version of the lore & story of Lotr. We all know which rout they've chosen, and secondly I agree with them when the film makers say that it's impossible to translate everything from the books to the silver screen. Some things would just get lost in translation and they would just kill their film audience.

Agreed

To make a film that is exactly by the book would 1) Lose anyone with no prior knowledge of LOTR in 10 mins flat. and 2) If we started watching it now we would still be there watchin it this time in 5 years!

P.J made the right choices I think by finding a happy medium.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:25 am

If they were only designed to hurt him, then why could Eowyn kill him? If it took a special blade to wound him, then it would take another special blade to kill him.

Granted, they may only work against the WK, but seeing as the RW all seem to have varying degrees of the same abilities, it would make sense that they would also be effective against the other 8.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:36 am

Dead Marsh Spectre wrote:

Sacrilege83 wrote:

You know the filmakers had a choice when developing the movies. Either cater to the millions of Lotr novel fans worldwide by keeping true to all of the lore or cater to the half-billion casual movie-goers by giving them a not so complicated and simplified version of the lore & story of Lotr. We all know which rout they've chosen, and secondly I agree with them when the film makers say that it's impossible to translate everything from the books to the silver screen. Some things would just get lost in translation and they would just kill their film audience.

Agreed

To make a film that is exactly by the book would 1) Lose anyone with no prior knowledge of LOTR in 10 mins flat. and 2) If we started watching it now we would still be there watchin it this time in 5 years!

P.J made the right choices I think by finding a happy medium.

He made mostly right choices. :wink:

Sacrilege83 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:08 am

Draugluin wrote:

If they were only designed to hurt him, then why could Eowyn kill him? If it took a special blade to wound him, then it would take another special blade to kill him.

Granted, they may only work against the WK, but seeing as the RW all seem to have varying degrees of the same abilities, it would make sense that they would also be effective against the other 8.

Man, where would you even begin to find the lore behind the Witchking and his special powers and how the barrow-blades came to be to break those powers/curse? Appendices, Unfinished Tales, Middle-Earth something something. etc, etc???

It would be a lot easier if they had Galadriel in the film say "These blades are of ancient craft from the long ago civilization of Arnor that Haldir happen to raid a tomb at Barrow-Downs not to long ago and recovered them." Then hands them to Merry and Pippen. Later you actually clearly see Merry use it to stab the Witchking. There, that way everyone is happy except for Bombadil fans.

Besides if these blades were made in Arnor with the intent to hurt the specific wraith being the Witchking, lord of the neighboring land of Angmar, why should they still work on say Khamul who's not even from that region? Isn't that all speculative talk if Tolkien didn't dwelve further into the lore in any of his writings?

Sticky Fingersss · **Joined:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 am **Posts:** 1072

Quote:

No they didn't, they used fear against the Corsairs of Umbar, they never even entered the Pelennor.

I didn't mean that is what actually happened, I just said that's what I thought would be alright.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:35 pm

Sacrilege83 wrote:

Draugluin wrote:

If they were only designed to hurt him, then why could Eowyn kill him? If it took a special blade to wound him, then it would take another special blade to kill him.

Granted, they may only work against the WK, but seeing as the RW all seem to have varying degrees of the same abilities, it would make sense that they would also be effective against the other 8.

Man, where would you even begin to find the lore behind the Witchking and his special powers and how the barrow-blades came to be to break those powers/curse? Appendices, Unfinished Tales, Middle-Earth something something. etc, etc???

It would be a lot easier if they had Galadriel in the film say "These blades are of ancient craft from the long ago civilization of Arnor that Haldir happen to raid a tomb at Barrow-Downs not to long ago and recovered them." Then hands them to Merry and Pippen. Later you actually clearly see Merry use it to stab the Witchking. There, that way everyone is happy except for Bombadil fans.

Besides if these blades were made in Arnor with the intent to hurt the specific wraith being the Witchking, lord of the neighboring land of Angmar, why should they still work on say Khamul who's not even from that region? Isn't that all speculative talk if Tolkien didn't dwelve further into the lore in any of his writings?

Reason why I would think they would work on the other 8 is that they all derive their powers from one source, so something effective against one (especially the most pwoerful one) should work against all 9.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:42 pm

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barrow-blades

I think it was a combination of being in the Appendices and part of in the book, I forget where.

Uncle_Cthulu · **Joined:** Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:26 pm **Posts:** 26

Include the fifedoms and the muster of gondor, no elves at helms deep, then i would have been very happy.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:58 pm

Though I was surprised and a bit disappointed w/ the Elves at Helms Deep, it did provide a sense of relief for the audience in many cases. My wife and others I talked to that were fans of the films but never read the books really appreciated the Elf arrival. They expressed the tension being almost too much with no hope of survival (for some this was even more intense due to the emphasis on the families taking refuge there) and found the elf arrival gave them a little hope.

I would have preferred to see Erkenbrand's arrival, some mention of the desperate defense of the dike (and the sacrifice made by so many Men there just to slow the advance) and Eomer's stand with Gimli. But accounting for all of that would have easily added another 30-45 minutes of screen time to keep it from seeming rushed and totally confusing.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:46 pm

Here's what PJ should have done with TT: Make Theoden want to fight instead of run like a little baby to Helms Deep (which is CLOSER to the threat than say Dunharrow), leave in the fight with the Wargs, but change it to be a large Rohan force coming to relieve a fleeing Eomer and introduce the Erkenbrand character as having a large number of troops fleeing north. Then Gandalf flies off. Then they arrive at Helms Deep without the useless Aragorn/Arwen scenes and ready the defences. 2000 vs 10000 is still desperate enough to create a lot of tension, yet not hopeless enough to require 300 or so elves marching 80 leagues through enemy territory and somehow magically appear in a ravine just ahead of the Uruk army. This would have left the film roughly the same length, yet not have made Theoden a coward, Aragorn almost die (like 3 times), Eomer would have actually been at the battle, and Haldir wouldn't have died. The only bright side of the elves being there is that we get epic looking Galadhrim minis.

Hilbert · **Posted:** Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:34 pm

Poor Haldir :sad:

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:21 pm

Like almost everyone above, I don't think they should have added things but skipped things. My list would be:

IMPORTANT: - Drop that bloody Warg Attack! It's not only the worst scene in the movie

, but also totally redundant, and costs a lot of screen time.
-Army of the Dead shouldn't be such total Dei ex Machina. Or at least make them grey, not fluorescent green, that's too cliché

Minor: -No elves at Helm's Deep, but Rohirrim. I think the elves' arrival is one of the best scenes in the movie, but it's not canon and quite redundant.
The "Muster of Rohan"-scene before Helms Deep doesn't do anything. I know every movie needs at least one "war is terrible, so don't try this at home" scene, but that doesn't mean I like it.

If you do that, you have enough time to put in the Fiefdoms of Gondor and the Erkenbrand

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:54 pm

Keep the Warg attack, wargs are wonderful, adorable, cute, awesome animals and should stay. The elf attcak has its merits too as i'm sick of elves not dying, they need to die more (they should also let their wome fight so that the ratio between elf men to elf women isn't 1:6), Also I don't like Erkenbrand so leave him.

The Army of the Dead were however, undoubtedly dreadful, the Fiefdoms cold be put in, especially Dol Amroth and the Blackroot Vale, also, the Easterling need to be in it more, the Variags should be there, the Haradrim to have infantry and cavlry, the Grey Company and Elf Twins there etc. Radagast and Glorfindel should also be there, and Beregond inbstead of his replacement.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:05 pm

The AotD saving the day at Minas Tirith does rob the success of Men, thru courage and tremendous sacrifice, over the forces of darkness. It had its merits of "fun" on the screen and did help provide a way of winning the siege that tied up relatively quick and easily without having to introduce several other characters and events to pull together, so I can understand it somewhat. And I've always felt that the AotD didn't really do enough to justify themselves in the stories...but that was personal opinion. I wouldn't have minded their inclusion at the siege if we could still have had the GC at least, and perhaps some of the other Men and not had the deus ex machina of a horde of spirits trashing the army of Mordor in 5 minutes with Theoden being the only loss we actually care about.

I also agree with keeping the Warg Attack. It was really fun to watch and well executed. Not sure Aragorn's "death" in that scene added anything other than a little suspense and another chance to tie in Arwen.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:46 pm

Well, the AotD destroyed a large force of corsairs that would have completely turned the tide of the BoPF, they did enough in the books to warrant their release. I agree that the warg fight was cool, they should have just changed it the way I said they should. Then everyone would be happy.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:22 pm

I'm only about 75% thru my (x-number) re-read of TTT. I'll pay more attention to how JRRT wrote it, but I just have the impression that what the accomplished at Pelargir was under detailed. Similarly though, the destruction of Isengard by the Ents was something interesting to read but realized far more vividly by PJ.

Yes, the AotD was terrifying but reading that most foes just ran away at their coming lacks punch. As I said though, I may simply not be remembering this chapter too well. Though I've read the trilogy many times in my younger days it has been the better part of a decade since I've gone start-to-finish with it.

What should have been in the movies

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