All times are UTC


It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:26 am



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Having read the discussion, which do you think is most likely?
The Elves only used heavy cavalry 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
The Elves used a mix of heavy and light cavalry 71%  71%  [ 25 ]
The Elves only used light cavalry 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
The Elves only used scouts and lone riders 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
The Elves didn't use any cavalry 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 35
Author Message
 Post subject: The Elf Cavalry Debate
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 1:21 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 35
[h1]A Discussion of Elven Cavalry, commonly referred to as "Elnaith"[/h1]
[h2]Introduction[/h2]
Firstly, what are Elnaith? Well, admittedly, the name is a GW invention, which first appeared in this article:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/elves/elf-cavalry/1/

The discussion is whether Elves used cavalry, and to what extent they did. For the discussion, we will only be concerning ourselves with Elves in the First and Second Ages (ie. before Sauron's defeat at the end of the Last Alliance) - in the Third Age the Elves were a dwindling race.

[h2]Arguments[/h2]
[h3]The Last Alliance, the name[/h3]
Games Workshop portrays the Elves of The Last Alliance as fielding light cavalry:
Image

Although the name itself is a GW invention, it does use elements of Quenya - indeed, the idea could be said to be "historically based". The term "Dirnaith" is a term Tolkien used to refer to an aggressive tactic of the Numenoreans at the Last Alliance - the term literally meant "Man Spear", and referred to a quickly moving wedge of spearmen on foot, used to break apart the Orc formations. By this logic, "Elnaith" means "Elf Spear", and using their mastery of horses, they could conceivably form a cavalry wedge. Since the Elves we see in the film form an infantry shield wall, any wedge they formed would have been a cavalry wedge (as the Rohirrim did later at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields). This would be faster and better at flanking than the Numenorean formation, which would have formed the bulk of the armies' numbers, so the Elves really would be the small elite on the battlefield.

Now this shows that it would be tactically likely to have cavalry during the Last Alliance, but what did Tolkien say about Elven mounts?

[h3]Horse-masters[/h3]
Well, we might as well start with the Elves' use of horses in the Third Age:

Asfaloth was the white horse of Glorfindel towards the end of the Third Age, with a pace that was light and smooth but swift. Glorfindel departed Rivendell in search of Frodo, riding Asfaloth using a saddle with stirrups. They encountered three Nazgul at the Last Bridge, pursuing them until they recovered Frodo (this role was given to Arwen in the film). From http://www.tuckborough.net/horses.html:

Quote:
Asfaloth turned and neighed fiercely at the Nazgul on the opposite bank... Asfaloth reared and snorted as the Nazgul approached, but then the waters of the Bruinen rose commanded by Elrond and Gandalf and the Nazgul were swept away.

Secondly we have Arod, which originally belonged to a Rider of Rohan, but was given to Legolas after his master died. From the same site:

Quote:
Arod was a fiery and restive horse, but Legolas rode him easily without saddle or rein. Gimli was not so comfortable on Arod, and he clung to his friend uneasily...

Legolas rode Arod to Meduseld and on to Helm's Deep. When Aragorn decided to take the Paths of the Dead, Legolas went with him, but Arod was reluctant to enter the Dark Door. Arod trembled in fear until Legolas laid his hands on the horse's eyes and sang to him. Arod then followed Legolas through the tunnels as the Dead gathered behind them.


Both these cases are interesting. Asfaloth stands up to the Nazgul - the Harbingers of Evil in Middle-earth - while Arod was calmed so that he could pass among the Army of the Dead. In both passages, it shows that the Elves of the late Third Age were very skilled horse-riders, and could calm their mounts in the face of danger or battle - both very useful skills if cavalry were ever needed.

But while that's interesting on its own, it doesn't expressly show the use of cavalry in the Second Age. Fortunately, we have evidence of this two:

[h3]Cavalry in the First Age[/h3]
Quote:
"The watchfires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum."

- The Silmarillion, Chapter 18

On the Games Workshop forum, fingolfin331 wrote:
This idea of horsemen makes sense beacuse the Plain of Arg-galen and Hithlum were a large part of the Noldor lived was perfect horse country, rolling plains. The elves were clever tacticains and would not have wasted such prime conditions for cavalry.

I would like to add something to that. They wouldn't get to be called the "Horsemen of Hithlum" if they did not use their horses in a form of cavalry. The "Riders of Rohan" would not have earned their name if they had not achieved the reputation on the battle-field. At the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, or "Battle of Unnumbered Tears", there were 15,000 to 20,000 Elves of Hithlum. But do we have evidence that Elves used cavalry in battle? Well, actually we do:
Quote:
"Now his wrath [Gwindor of Nargathrond] was kindled to madness, and he lept forth on horseback, and many riders with him: and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove deep on into the host."

-The Silmarillion, Chapter 20, page 226; HarperCollins edition.

There were at least 500 Elves of Nargathrond at this battle. Gwindor's charge which started the battle is express proof of cavalry, but we must also understand the definition. "Cavalry" does not necessarily mean a standing army - this is something which has fluctuated throughout history. During the early Middle Ages, armies were often composed of levied militia. The Romans used cavalry auxiliaries, which were not in every army because they were limited to the wealthy class known as the "Equites" (those who could afford the expense of maintaining a horse and the necessary armour).

So, any riders in numbers on the battle-field were effectively cavalry. The Rohirrim, for example, did not go on manouevres and routine training exercises, nor were they paid for military service. They learned from their own experience at their homesteads, and would be called up to fight if the area was attacked or (in the case of the War of the Ring) they were going to aid Gondor.

At the aforementioned Battle of Unnumbered Tears, the important line to me is that they "drove deep on into the host". To me, this indicates heavy cavalry. Again, the Elnaith "wedge" I mentioned earlier explains how they were able to get so deep into the enemy lines. I believe the Elven lords of Gondolin would have had such heavy cavalry too, comparable to the Roman Equites, as Gondolin itself was a rich, urban stronghold. This is my own conversion depicting such a lord of Gondolin, mounted on a caparisoned horse:

Image

[h2]Conclusion[/h2]
To recap, I believe that the Elves of the urban centres at Nargathrond and Gondolin used heavy cavalry during the Wars of Beleriand. The Elves of the plains of Hithlum used lighter cavalry. By the time of the Last Alliance, they used light cavalry to create wedge formations, which may be described accurately (if not canonically) as "Elnaith". By the end of the Third Age, the Elves of Rivendell only used riders in small numbers or for scouting, and did not engage in battles involving cavalry.


The site currently has two articles on converting light High Elf cavalry:
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/index.php?pag ... &artid=543
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/kb.php ... icle&k=236

Why have I written this? Well, I plan to write my own article on coverting heavy Elf cavalry (ie. the captain above), and I plan to use this for an introduction on "Elnaith" in general. Your thoughts? :wink:
(NB: I have an article on painting Numenoreans to finish first, then I will get to work on this topic's article)

Note also the poll, which deals with the events of the First and Second Age. :)

_________________
The Tengwar Beacon
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 3:53 pm 
Loremaster
Loremaster
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:53 pm
Posts: 1827
Location: CO, USA
That is some terrific and well thought out research.

Often it seems that any company cashing in on a valuable product name tries to milk the cow for as long as possible, and some of the releases from GW have felt a little too close to the edge for me to be comfortable with. The thought of mounted Elf warriors was something I really feel could and would have happened in the bigger picture of Tolkien's world, but it is a matter of how it gets pulled off. Your efforts here give a great foundation for better understanding that and I really hope the GW team puts in at least this same amount of research and thought on the matter before drafting rules simply because it will sell more sourcebooks and give a new line of $20 models.

Thanx!

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 4:01 pm 
Kinsman
Kinsman
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 84
Location: London
An excellent summary of Elven cavalry - I await your article...

I think it is quite clear that the elves were horse masters, and have every right to field their own cavalry. It won't be long until GW release their elven knights (listed in LoME)

_________________
Brush licking is for better painters.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:26 am 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:47 am
Posts: 18
Location: Alabama, USA
Very well plotted! Take that GW! :lol:

_________________
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." My Shop
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:51 am 
Craftsman
Craftsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:38 am
Posts: 332
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Nice research there Grim, can't wait to see the article. However, after reading this it leaves me wondering how GW is going to make up a backstory for Galadhrim Knights :? After all, the Lothlorien elves were originally called the tree-elves, which leads me to believe that cavalry for them would be somewhat rarer.

Looks like your conversion will be somewhat expensive though, will you be only using metals?
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:21 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:23 am
Posts: 29
Location: IN YOUR BRAIN
Awesome research, Grimhelm. YOu know, when the new KoMT plastics come out, then you could use those to convert nice and cheap light elnaith, and still use SKoDA for heavy ones. Thats what I would do, at least.

_________________
......

DOUBLE WOOTAGE....erm, yeah.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:14 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 35
GoodSmeagol wrote:
Very well plotted! Take that GW! :lol:

People have said that of my research before. :lol:

Haldir_Strikes wrote:
However, after reading this it leaves me wondering how GW is going to make up a backstory for Galadhrim Knights :? After all, the Lothlorien elves were originally called the tree-elves, which leads me to believe that cavalry for them would be somewhat rarer.

Looks like your conversion will be somewhat expensive though, will you be only using metals?

The miniature I showed above was made from three metal models: the horse from a Swan Knight Dol Amroth, the lower body of a Knight of Minas Tirith, and the upper body of a High Elf Spearman, as you can see in this picture:
http://www.one-ring.co.uk/phpBB2/album_ ... ic_id=3354

I made it for a Fall of Gondolin Supplement that was never finished (not to be confused with the one that was actually completed on this site). It looks like the supplement never will be finished, so that's why I'm adapting it here for the site (it was actually through the supplement that I joined the One Ring in 2005). Since The Buckland Brewer has already covered light Elven Cavalry from the Last Alliance in an article on this site, I think my article will focus on the Captains of Gondolin's heavy cavalry - a conversion guide for just my current miniature. I already have the most of the text written out, and close up pictures from every step of the way. As I have said, all I need is the layout, and to finish my article on Numenoreans.


Oh, and I don't think the Lothlorien Elves had cavalry to any great extent, as they were more suited to stealth warfare. :wink:

username wrote:
You know, when the new KoMT plastics come out, then you could use those to convert nice and cheap light elnaith, and still use SKoDA for heavy ones. Thats what I would do, at least.

Why Knights of Minas Tirith? Riders of Rohan would work just as well for light cavalry conversions. :wink: I have considered making some light Elven cavalry armed only with bows in the distant future, but that depends on whether I would prefer to have the Rohirrim as they are. :)

_________________
The Tengwar Beacon
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:36 am 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:23 am
Posts: 29
Location: IN YOUR BRAIN
Well, the only reason that I say KoMT is because they have the ideal tassets, just round off the edges. Thats the only reason.

_________________
......

DOUBLE WOOTAGE....erm, yeah.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:06 am 
Craftsman
Craftsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:38 am
Posts: 332
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You could also use the entire SKoDA mini actually. However you may have to file off anything that ties it allegiance to Dol Amroth. Then maybe a head-swap with either a plastic elf, or just a spear man.

It would justify how 'The Horsemen of Hithlium' were seen as a well-trained heavy cav force.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:12 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 91
Location: The Front lines
No matter how much I think about it, I can't wrap my mind around the 3d age Elves dawning heavy armor, shields and lances and charging spontaneously into a rabble of orcs. I imagine elf cav being fast and agile, not burdened like the KoDA or any other heavy cavalry, hitting hard and fast but not foolishly. However, the pre-war of the ring elves seem much better candidates for heavy riders. The fact that the elven race is still flourishing means more resources may be alloted to the creation of an armored, elite mounted force. In contrast to the third age, where a dead elf is hundreds of years of experience gone mostly to waste, making Elven tacticians wary of sending their precious kin into battle in such a way.

_________________
OR's secret stealth poster since 9/09.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:11 am 
Ringwraith
Ringwraith
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:56 am
Posts: 1938
Location: Louisville, KY
Images: 18
Either way, this is the way to research a subject and present your ideas. Excellent work, Grimhelm. Have a cookie....er, coin.

JRB

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:42 pm 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:34 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Crecganford
Images: 14
Nicely researched. I am looking forward to the article.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:41 pm 
Craftsman
Craftsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:38 am
Posts: 332
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
BrightLance wrote:
No matter how much I think about it, I can't wrap my mind around the 3d age Elves dawning heavy armor, shields and lances and charging spontaneously into a rabble of orcs.


In the case of 3rd age elves, I would think they would operate much like the Rohirrim, using their superiority with bows in order to perform hit and run tactics on the enemy. However seeing as there was probably a distinct lack of warriors available during the third age, I would assume that the 'armies' would only consist of foot soldiers.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:12 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 35
Erunion wrote:
Either way, this is the way to research a subject and present your ideas. Excellent work, Grimhelm. Have a cookie....er, coin.

Yay, Cookie! Er, coin... Thanks! :D

Haldir_Strikes wrote:
You could also use the entire SKoDA mini actually. However you may have to file off anything that ties it allegiance to Dol Amroth. Then maybe a head-swap with either a plastic elf, or just a spear man.

Yes, but Elves and Swan Knights have different armour. It is do-able with just a head swap and some filing, but out of personal preference I would do as I have already done. :wink:

BrightLance wrote:
No matter how much I think about it, I can't wrap my mind around the 3d age Elves dawning heavy armor, shields and lances and charging spontaneously into a rabble of orcs... However, the pre-war of the ring elves seem much better candidates for heavy riders. The fact that the elven race is still flourishing means more resources may be alloted to the creation of an armored, elite mounted force. In contrast to the third age, where a dead elf is hundreds of years of experience gone mostly to waste, making Elven tacticians wary of sending their precious kin into battle in such a way.

I have to agree. In the First Age, the Elves were putting all their effort into trying to stop Morgoth. They had the resources to use heavy cavalry, and to stop Morgoth they would need everything in their arsenal. There were almost 100,000 Elves at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Between over 500 Elves of Nargathrond and as many as 20,000 Elves of Hithlum, they really would have used heavy cavalry. :)

At the Last Alliance, they put everything again into overthrowing Sauron, but in the Third Age, they were trying to preserve themselves after the heavy losses sustained. With so few left after over 6000 since the Battle of Tears, they simply couldn't afford to use their old tactics.

Haldir_Strikes wrote:
...seeing as there was probably a distinct lack of warriors available during the third age, I would assume that the 'armies' would only consist of foot soldiers.

Perhaps because there were so few left, they could only send Glorfindel alone to confront the Nazgul, rather than any more mounted Elves - even though the Ring and the Fate of Middle-earth was at risk.

_________________
The Tengwar Beacon
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:42 am 
Kinsman
Kinsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:38 am
Posts: 91
Location: The Front lines
Like I said before, I think of the elves of the third age being much more resilient to open combat than previous eras, operating more on a need-to-do basis. Haladir and the elf twins are a precious few elves who still belive in protecting their worldly counterparts, it and run tactics (with bows -YAYSTR3BOWS!!!-) seem much more efficient for a dying/leaving race, as it usually keeps the offensive combatant out of harm's way. An elf rider group probably would operate like Rohirrim or Arabian horse archers (who rode circles around infantry, firing into the ranks and causing mass confusion.)

my $.02

_________________
OR's secret stealth poster since 9/09.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 am 
Craftsman
Craftsman
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:38 am
Posts: 332
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
BrightLance wrote:
An elf rider group probably would operate like Rohirrim or Arabian horse archers (who rode circles around infantry, firing into the ranks and causing mass confusion.)


heh. Thats what I already said. In any case, I would think that not only were there a lack of foot soldiers, but most likely a lack of horses as well. The movies (bad example i know) show that the areas where elves were concentrated wouldn't of really been too suitable for cavalry training in general. In fact, the only times we really see elves with cavalry is when elven royalty, such as Elrond and Arwen are being escourted by their cohorts of (unarmed mind you) elves.

Against the wolves of Isengard however, I'm not sure what sort of formation light cavalry would use however. As we saw in TTT, the Rohirrim got pretty badly overrun, so I'm not too sure how the elves would fare.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:57 pm 
Ringwraith
Ringwraith
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:56 am
Posts: 1938
Location: Louisville, KY
Images: 18
Grimhelm of Snowbourn wrote:
Perhaps because there were so few left, they could only send Glorfindel alone to confront the Nazgul, rather than any more mounted Elves - even though the Ring and the Fate of Middle-earth was at risk.


If I recall correctly, did not Glorfindel say something to the effect that Elrond had sent out many riders to try and find and help them, but he happened to be the one the find them? I don't have a page number for that, but I thought I remembered something like that.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:06 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:11 pm
Posts: 35
Erunion wrote:
If I recall correctly, did not Glorfindel say something to the effect that Elrond had sent out many riders to try and find and help them, but he happened to be the one the find them? I don't have a page number for that, but I thought I remembered something like that.

Now that is quite interesting (I'll have to look into this :)). But then, it was the last chance for Middle-earth, and lone riders were best for covering a lot of wilderness. In fact, since the Elven lands of Lorien and Rivendell were surrounded by wilderness, rather than the plains of the Second Age, that is the main reason cavalry would be less effective at the end of the Third Age. :wink:

_________________
The Tengwar Beacon
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:23 pm 
Ringwraith
Ringwraith
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:56 am
Posts: 1938
Location: Louisville, KY
Images: 18
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:
"Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeyeing in your land beyond the Baranduin (Brandywine), learned that things were amiss, and sent massages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astrqy bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness.

It was my lot to take the Road, and I came to the bridge of Mitheithel, and left a token there, nigh on seven days ago...."


That's from p.222 in my edition of the Fellowship of the Ring.

_________________
Respectfully,
Jonathan

Do what is right, love mercy, and walk humbly

Battle Companies
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:40 pm 
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
Offline

Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:37 pm
Posts: 1
BrightLance wrote:
However, the pre-war of the ring elves seem much better candidates for heavy riders.


Well it does seem likely GW will bring them out with a Last Alliance suplement, as there are chariots and catapults ready to be released as well and they are all listed under the high elves which are still called Last Alliance by GW so.

Also, during war of the ring the Elfs didn't really attack and light cavalry is a better defense, as they can swiftly reach different points to protect buildings, women and children.

I think this also explains the galadhrim knights, those will probably be light cavalry and the LA knights heavy.
Top
  Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: